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Message: <blockquote data-quote="sheadunne" data-source="post: 6243546" data-attributes="member: 27570">When I run a PF game, I don't attempt to balance anything. I just let it go where it goes. Just because there are balance problems in the 3x/PF framework, doesn't mean the game can't be played with those issues. I also don't ban or disallow any Paizo products in the game, nor did I with 3x no matter how skewed it was. Most players balanced it themselves based on the type of game they wanted to play.I'm also advocating in this thread for a balance between narrative influences not a balance between combat effectiveness. There aren't two sides in this conversation, more like 6 or 7. On the issue of skill-based classes, I find that Wizards tend to have as many and often times more skill points than the other classes, simply because it's a SAD class with INT as its primary stat. Aside from the Rogue, INT is usually a dump stat for most of the other skill-based classes, including Bard, although not as much there as the others like Ranger. Fighters got boned before and still get boned, although at least now their few skills are more versatile. I haven't noticed any issues, especially when you consider that due to the trait system in PF pretty much any skill can be a class skill. What the 2+ system does do is allow players to invest skill points in the skills they think their characters would actually know, instead of ones they think their character should know in order to play PF. Ideally I'd take the time to rework the entire skill system, but that tends to make it more difficult for players who use electronic aides like Herolabs to keep track of their characters. In a game like PF it's usually more beneficial to invest in Perception than in Appraise, unless appraise can also be used for Diplomacy in situations of economic negotiations or in place of spell craft for identifying magic items or in place of sense motive to see that the car dealer is trying to rip you off. I'd love to see knowledge skills go away and be replaced by skills that encompass both application and study. 4e does this and I think it would only benefit 3x/PF. Just have an acrana skill that's used for knowledge, spellcraft of arcane spells, concentration checks for arcane spells, etc. There's also the point that Wizards don't particularly even have to bother with skills, since they usually have access to spells that duplicate or exceed the skills anyway. If the wizard really needs to be sneaky he just casts invisibility. If he needs to climb a wall, he levitates. If he needs speak a language, he casts tongues, etc. Since this thread is about fighters as well, they really need to give the fighter more skill points, but if you look at all the combat skills (proficiencies he gets) he's not doing too badly (3 weapon skills and 4 armor skills and he gets a free rank in each weapon skill per a level). That is if the game were skill based instead of class based, which it isn't. Anyway, I like giving players options and I've had too many situations where none of the players had invested in relevant skills and it made running a particular AP more difficult in PF. That's less the case these days since I don't rely on any particular skill to accomplish things.</blockquote>

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