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Message: <blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6176610" data-attributes="member: 6681948">The belief the concept is silly leads to a bias against making the class effective, at least in my view. Why can a Bard not be a perfectly serious choice for an adventurer, just as they are in the source material? We can make all Barbarians unwashed, uncivilized oafs, thus making them a silly concept, if we choose to do so. We simply do not choose to do so, nor do many of us choose to treat the bard as a silly fop with a lute.Selecting the two of five which seem most relevant to our context. Your dismissal of the Bard as a "travelling minstrel, a silly concept for an adventurer", and your bias towards melee might as the primary or sole determinant of viability as an adventurer, seem pretty clear from where I sit, but I also have biases. Perhaps a more objective poster would like to weigh in and assess our relative biases. But then, my biases will lead me to agree with those who favour my interpretation, and yours will lead you to agree with those who favour yours.There have been a few offerings in this thread of non-silly Bard concepts. I'll quote a few more, from <a href="http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/8215/what-are-the-literary-influences-of-the-dd-bard" target="_blank">http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/8215/what-are-the-literary-influences-of-the-dd-bard</a>I don't see these three historical influences as presenting a "silly character concept", but one sufficiently valid that 1e players wanted such a class enough to influence its inclusion in 2e and all subsequent editions (as well as its 1e hodgepodge optional rule). Some other names presented, beyond the Celtic Bards, Norse Skalds, European Minstrels/Jongleaurs and Tolkeinian historians, include:- Keith Taylor's Bard series (Felimid mac Fal.?)- Alan a/Dale from Robin Hood (Will Scarlet also gets a mention, as does Bilbo Baggins, oddly)- A couple of characters from Pern- the Pied Piper of Hamlin- Tennyson's Taliesen- Bardic Voices (Mercedes Lackey)- GypsiesI'm not familiar with all the references, and I'm not sure I agree with all those I do recognize (Bilbo especially). Other suggestions from other sites:- Fflewddur Fflam (from The Chronicles of Prydain, a series mentioned a few times), Sir Richard Francis Burton, Gurney Halleck (from Dune)- Orpheus (mentioned before)- Luthien in the Silmarillion, singing Morgoth to sleep- Paedur the Bard from Michael Scott's rather good Culai Heritage- Fafhrd of Lahnkmar fame was trained as a high voiced Skald- el cid- Pretty much all the main heroes from the Finnish epic Kalevala - Väinämöinen, Ilmarinen or JoukahinenA less common approach:</blockquote>

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