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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6288620" data-attributes="member: 4937">Why do you think that a Glabrezu is supposed to be much weaker than a Balor?  You think that because 3e in particular gave the fiends clear heirarchies and clear degrees of power that they really don't have in 1e.  You want heirarchies, you should be looking at the entries for 'Devil'.  The 1e Balor is tougher than you think, I think, because you aren't looking at it as a whole, but I think it should be clear that it's not intended as the capstone iconic 'CR 20' foe that it shows up as in 3e.   In general, dungeon level = monster level = player level.  For thieves you are going to be a level or two ahead of that because rogue levels are individually less powerful, and a paladin or a multi-classed fighter/m-u is going to lag a level or so, but its pretty close.  In general, this will only be easy to do if you keep the Unearthed Arcana out of player hands, strongly enforce rules on spellcasting (and understand them), and keep careful control of treasure in the game either by the Monster Manual + random generation method (which will usually ensure magic is rare, a lot rarer than you'd think) or by careful selection.   If you don't do this, most of the fiend lords become relatively easy fights for a well prepared party sometime between 10th and 12th level.  If you want something that can actually challenge a party of 12th level characters and not look like a chump, consider the scale of power of some of the nastier fiend lords in MM2.  Those actually challenged Gygax's high level PC's.  Many of the ones in MM1 are actually too weak, with the exception of a couple - like Orcus and Asmodeous - that are a bit one trick ponies (but its a good trick). Depends.  If the PC's are able to optimize, they can produce damage levels you won't be able to believe.  For example, consider the case of a double specialized fighter with gauntlets of ogre power, a belt of giant strength, and a hammer of thunderbolts.   Average damage per hit is going to be around 25, with two hits per round (full BAB in 3e terms) and in general misses only on a 1 (or thereabouts).  If the hammer of thunderbolts isn't available, a good two-handed sword will work nearly as well.  Or consider a high level Paladin with a Holy Avenger attacking a large sized evil monster for probably not less than about 2d12+22 damage per hit.  Add to that a 12th level M-U dropping 12d6 direct damage attacks that even if they are saved against will usually be doing 20+ damage to everything in the area, and a party of six 12th level+ characters will be easily dealing 150 damage or more per round unless you are very careful about it.  Most single things they encounter will not survive a single round even with less optimization than I've mentioned.  Most high level 1e fights are effectively over no later than the initiative roll.  Surprise round and going first is just about everything.Once you are dealing with that, then you'll need to worry about monsters not balanced against those in the MM.  I can also give you advice about what you can still use from the MM to provide challenge.One of the reasons it's hard to give you definitive advice is that power level at a given level is going to be up to you and your players.  You're going to have to learn what they can handle by experience.That's about right, but keep in mind the above sorts of glass cannon issues.</blockquote>

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