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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Firearms in 4E
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<blockquote data-quote="Kraydak" data-source="post: 4657980" data-attributes="member: 12306"><p>Say rather, the military doctrine of the day mandated mass troops, so marksmanship was virtually irrelevant. Muskets <strong>weren't</strong> absurdly inaccurate, but their use and the training requirements (hold formation so you survive cavalry) meant that no one cared. It was only once the rate of fire got high enough that mass troops became untenable (which also made cavalry useless) that people started dispersing (or hiding in trenches) and marksmanship became important. (Note also that at military ranges, bows were also inaccurate. NO ONE is going to be able to hit a moving target with plunging fire, if for no other reason then you can't lead a target for multi-second flight times) Armies fielded marksmen from the 1600s on (note that pre-firearms, ranged weapons didn't have enough range for real sniping), but low rate-of-fire marksmen are very situational.</p><p></p><p>Interestingly, I like 4e's bow ranges. At the approximate high-end launch speeds of 100m/s, 4e's ranges cap out at about a .5 second flight time. I find it hard to imagine *aimed* fire being useful with longer times against active opponents. Volley fire against massed formations, of course, is another matter entirely.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Guns (from a late enough period) *are* doomsday weapons, as their total dominance from the 1800s (1700s really) onwards demonstrates. See also the various colonial wars. Even light pistol rounds out-energy any muscle powered (non-ratcheted*) weapons. By a lot. Early firearms hit harder, farther than anything that came before, allowing them to defeat armor (and resulting in them displacing all other weapon systems).</p><p></p><p>This, of course, poses a major problem for any game set in a modern enough period: give firearms realistic stats and no one can afford to bring a knife to a gun-fight. If you want the available character-design-space to include knife fighters, well, guns can't get their RL stat lines.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But from the mid-1600s to the late 1900s, armor was not good enough at bouncing bullets to be militarily worthwhile. Yes, at (very) long range, against (very) light ammo, you can armor against firearms with non-modern material science, but it isn't reliable or useful.</p><p></p><p>*by ratcheted I mean the ability to store energy without the continuous exertion of force by the user, allowing whatever form of mechanical advantage used to be reset, in turn allowing muliple "power strokes". Such a weapon will, by design be very slow, because you are using multiple power strokes. Most modern systems for such would involve compressed air.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kraydak, post: 4657980, member: 12306"] Say rather, the military doctrine of the day mandated mass troops, so marksmanship was virtually irrelevant. Muskets [B]weren't[/B] absurdly inaccurate, but their use and the training requirements (hold formation so you survive cavalry) meant that no one cared. It was only once the rate of fire got high enough that mass troops became untenable (which also made cavalry useless) that people started dispersing (or hiding in trenches) and marksmanship became important. (Note also that at military ranges, bows were also inaccurate. NO ONE is going to be able to hit a moving target with plunging fire, if for no other reason then you can't lead a target for multi-second flight times) Armies fielded marksmen from the 1600s on (note that pre-firearms, ranged weapons didn't have enough range for real sniping), but low rate-of-fire marksmen are very situational. Interestingly, I like 4e's bow ranges. At the approximate high-end launch speeds of 100m/s, 4e's ranges cap out at about a .5 second flight time. I find it hard to imagine *aimed* fire being useful with longer times against active opponents. Volley fire against massed formations, of course, is another matter entirely. Guns (from a late enough period) *are* doomsday weapons, as their total dominance from the 1800s (1700s really) onwards demonstrates. See also the various colonial wars. Even light pistol rounds out-energy any muscle powered (non-ratcheted*) weapons. By a lot. Early firearms hit harder, farther than anything that came before, allowing them to defeat armor (and resulting in them displacing all other weapon systems). This, of course, poses a major problem for any game set in a modern enough period: give firearms realistic stats and no one can afford to bring a knife to a gun-fight. If you want the available character-design-space to include knife fighters, well, guns can't get their RL stat lines. But from the mid-1600s to the late 1900s, armor was not good enough at bouncing bullets to be militarily worthwhile. Yes, at (very) long range, against (very) light ammo, you can armor against firearms with non-modern material science, but it isn't reliable or useful. *by ratcheted I mean the ability to store energy without the continuous exertion of force by the user, allowing whatever form of mechanical advantage used to be reset, in turn allowing muliple "power strokes". Such a weapon will, by design be very slow, because you are using multiple power strokes. Most modern systems for such would involve compressed air. [/QUOTE]
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