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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8245955" data-attributes="member: 93670">Not a chance, mordenkaenin's swrd doen't need to be compared to those <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/177-spell-spotlight-fireball" target="_blank">"intentionally overtuned"</a> spells becaus  it fails so hard without any help there even when you stack the odds in favor of the spell for the math.   Hope this clears it up <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />It's actually a lot worse than just being a short concentration 7th level spell.  The concentration is a big problem with it  but there is so much more that is easy to quantify because it's since it's a damage spell][spoiler="some math"]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">From level  13 onward a full caster will have one level 7 spell slot per long rest so any level 7 spell needs to pack a big bang & without some kind of (de)buff there's no subjectivity on if the (de)buff saves it</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ignore for the moment that there are very good reasons why the d12 cantrips are rarely used.  At level 13 a generic d12 cantrip will be doing an average of 3x6.5 (19.5) as an action  with mordenkainen's sword doing a n average of 3x3.5 (10) on the bonus action. .  We can be generous & round those up to a total of 30/round for one minute by using concentration.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">at level 13  a fighter will have 3 attacks given 20 strength & armed with a  shield & dagger alongside no feats no class features  that fighter will be doing (2.5+5)x3(22.5) giving a good indicator of what mordenkainen's sword beats out & by how much when compared to a hypothetical "of whatever you are doing for your action". Remember at this point the caster is using an a spell prep slot for mord's sword, using their one level 7 spell slot, and maintaining concentration in an effort to somehow really bring the pain while there is a nearly infinitely long list why dagger & shield is not even common enough to be called "an unusual choice".</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If that fighter switches from dagger & shield to greataxe & gwm they will be doing (6.5+5+10) x3 for an average per round no limited resource burn at will of 64.5, we can be harsh & round it down to 64 & i's still a full 45 points higher than the up rounded generic d12 cantrip with mord'ssword burning the level 7 spell slot concentration & bonus action without needing concentration a consumable resource or a bonus action  Going all out  and still being over 30 points behind the all day at will  does not make a good case for mordenkainen's sword.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">That 20 strength dagger fighter gave up his shield to use the greatsword though, longsword & shield will be doing (4.5+5)x3(28.5) per round with no resource or even feat consumption.  If we round that sword &board fighter's damage down to 28 the up rounded generic d12 cantrip with mord's sword is beating it by an eyepopping 2 points of damage but without the roundings it drops to just a single point.  Given the fighter isn't using a fighting style or anything like action surge  yet something is definitely fishy.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If you take that 7th level mordenkainen's sword & replace it with the 1hour concentration spell <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/elemental-weapon" target="_blank">elemental weapon</a>on that dagger fighter using the lowest 3rd level slot it adds 1+1d4(2.5) to each of those three attacks  totaling (3.5+1)x3(10.5) at no action cost for a total identical to mordenkainen's sword 1 minute per round bonus action average damage with no bonus action cost.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Elemental weapon is not generally considered a "good" spell but if we upcast it to a 5th or 7th level slot you get (+2+2d4)x3(13.5) & (+3+3d4)x3(16.5) for an average of  on top of that dagger & shield fighter's 22.5/round</li> </ul></li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Yes the caster might be able do better by swapping the generic d12 cantrip for leveled spells, but the first 19.5 points of each of those spells is just breaking even with at will cantrip use.  Replacing that generic d12 cantrip with a more common d10/d8 cantrip like firebolt or ray of frost  drops that to 16.5 & 13.5 because leveled damage spells almost always need an action to cast<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If you bring in aoe spells for those you can use th dmg249 formula for adjudicating targets in area of effect based on area & shape of the spell, but keep in mind that a theoretical expectation that a spell could hit y targets assumes that those targets are present in the fight as well as politely clustered in a way that is convenient  to  being within the blast cone line or cube each round.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I didn't mention resistant to nonmagic bludgeoning piercing & slashing at any point & haave strong doubts that we know enough about how it will work in levelup to discussit in any meaningful fashion based on katrina's hellish firebolt<a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/level-up-works-in-progress.678115/post-8238175" target="_blank"> here</a> & the level 10 herald aura of overcoming.  For o5e based on the bottom of page21 in <a href="https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf" target="_blank">this (errata)</a> & this collection of wotc guidance from 3 different sources we aren't talking about what wotc considers or suggests being an especially cumbersome bar there [spoiler="collection"] [ATTACH=full]135493[/ATTACH] [/spoiler]</li> </ul>[spoiler="collection"][/spoiler]<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"></li> </ul>you can play with math in a spreadsheet <a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BGyYy9W5Vf9xeNyIrTrJog9YdkJOTImyhmklvdKKMtI/edit?usp=sharing" target="_blank">here</a> that breaks down a lot of stuff into easy to follow pieces, there's an old worst spell thread <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/whats-the-worst-spell.560734/" target="_blank">here</a> where mordenkainen's sword features prominently in it, but there's no reason to necro the 10 page thread from 2017 because there is a more recent one <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/guide-to-cruddy-spells-v1-01.679077/" target="_blank">here</a> that summarizes the hate for each spell & continues on to cover a wide range of merely cruddy sspells regularly squeezed out by truly unforgivable stinkers like mordenkainen's sword truestrike & witchbolt[/spoiler]It's not just that an upcast bigsby's hand is better,  a huge range of spells are better by far. I don't think we have seen the details on what any of the levelup cantrips look like yet but given what we saw with slow  it's safe to say that arcane sword being concentration is a much higher opportunity cost even if hypothetically cantrips are better.</blockquote>

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