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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 8292329" data-attributes="member: 7023840">So a brief note here.The orginal premise of the thread was two-fold; first, that Firefly is overrated. I mean, I'm sure that's the kind of reasonable and unobjectionable opinion that is unlikely to get anyone all angered up under the collar.Second, and more importantly, when considering things that are "all time greats" (as in "Hall of Fame") longevity, sustained excellence, matters. It's not the end-all, be-all. Gayle Sayers, for example, is in Canton (that's the Pro Football Hall of Fame) despite playing only 4 full and most of one more season (call it 4 and 2/3 seasons).But you want to know something funny? Bo Jackson (brought up by, for example [USER=23751]@Maxperson[/USER] ) is NOT in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Not because he wasn't amazing (he was- one of the best I ever saw). But because he just didn't do it long enough. There was no sustained excellence.And that's where it circles back to this thread, and the cannoli thread-[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.enworld.org/threads/consider-the-cannoli-subjective-preferences-and-conversations-about-geek-media.680444/page-2#post-8292274[/URL]If someone enjoys Firefly, that's great! I am not going to come to their home and slap their Firefly DVDs out of their hands. If someone wants to say that Firefly is one of their favorite ever shows, that's cool too. I mean, I am sure that there is someone, somewhere, that is still mourning the loss of Shasta McNasty (yes, I'm talking about you Busey). Subjective taste is a heckuva thing. You like opera, I like free jazz, Chad likes atonal industrial, and Jed likes Ariana Grande; it's all good.But when someone (like me) is trying to put together different lists of "great" shows, or so-called HoF shows, you can't just put individualistic criteria as your guide. You need to start looking at something other than, "Firefly is awesome because I really really like it."And when I look at it, what I see in its favor is an amazing cast. Truly- one thing the Whedon-verse was great at was assembling killer casts, and this might have been the best. But what else is ... memorable about it? What makes it a HOF show?Start with the basics-1. Did it achieve sustained excellence? No. We've been over that.2. Was it visually inventive? Some shows (think of the Kubrick-ian Mr. Robot, or Legion) have taken the standard TV fare in new and exciting visual directions with cinema-like directing and cinematography. Firefly ... doesn't.3. Was it groundbreaking/influential in any way? Buffy codified familiar concepts like the season-long arc and the "Big Bad." Curb Your Enthusiasm and Arrested Development laid the groundwork for the single-camera sitcom and lack of laughtrack that killed off the hegemony of the traditional sitcom. The Honemooners was one of the first realistic (kinda) despictions of working class Americans on TV. And so on. Was Firefly groundbreaking or massively influential? Not really, no.4. Was it insanely popular?  M.A.S.H. or Friends are two incredibly popular shows. Firefly was shown out-of-order and had rating that were so bad that three of the episodes weren't even aired.5. Did it at least have a single episode that resonates throughout time? Star Trek (TOS) has quite a few, but how about City on the Edge of Forever? Mad Men and the Suitcase? Seinfeld's The Contest? Buffy and Once More With Feeling (or the Body...sob)? Soprano's Pine Barren? X-File's Clyde Bruckman's Final Repose? The Office and Dinner Party? Breaking Bad and Ozymandias?.... Game of Thrones and The Rains of Castamere? Just listing these names ... you know what I mean. What episode of Firefly ... what single episode of Firefly, is that type of all-time great?I am sure that people could come up with some other criteria, but ... that's what gets me. Not that someone wouldn't rank it as one of their favorites, but that so many people seem insistent that it's one of the best ever. Which is truly baffling to me. It's a serialized show that never got to tell even a single season's arc. Quite literally, it failed at doing its one job. No fault of its own, but still.That people love it ... that's great. The characters are lovable. I wish they had done more. Just like I wish that Bo Jackson hadn't suffered that freak injury. But at some point, assuming it's not your personal and idiosyncratic best of, comparisons have to be made.Is it more HOF worthy than Star Trek (TOS)? TNG? Doctor Who? BSG? Buffy? Angel? Mr. Robot? The Expanse? Twilight Zone? Black Mirror? Red Dwarf? Babylon 5? Fringe? Lost? Legion? The Prisoner? X-Files?At what point do the various strengths of other shows begin to matter? I don't have the answer, but I do think that for whatever reason, the anger at the early cancelation of Firefly has benefitted it in outsized proportion to its actual quality. IMO, YMMV, etc.</blockquote>

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