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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aurumvorax" data-source="post: 5331408" data-attributes="member: 87266">Yes.  It's the only game I play in and occasionally run offline because my friends have moved on and don't want to look back.If I want to retain mystery, I would not use magic items found in any books players are expected to own and use.  That instantly rules out 80% of your list.My point isn't an aversion to creating magic items, it's the fact that I'm doing extra work for no reason.  The magic items in D&D are fine as is but they should not be in the player's hands if the game expected to keep any sense of wonder or unknown to the players.I don't know what your point is here.  The AD&D style is that experience comes from recovering treasure and completing quests.  The 4e style is fighting monsters.  Your defense is to reduce monster experience and assign an experience value to the treasure.  My offense is that the "I roll and find it" skills like perception negate the point of even hiding treasure because "Oops, I rolled a 30 and found your hidden cache."The only way to fix this is force the characters to specifically designate what they're searching for but this now undermines a major skill.Spells are a major factor in the AD&D feel making it very necessary.  Rituals are, in almost all conditions except raising your character, a waste of resources.  Majority of them do little more than save you time from more manual labor.I don't know what your point is here.  I'm not talking about waves, I'm talking about the battle increasing beyond the experience point budget.  Waves are easy.  10 minions that appear after the previous group of 10 is an easy fight.  40 minions at once is not an easy fight.  My point is that large battles in 4e are not manageable because so many things happen during a round.  In Gygax's modules, alerting a base would have every single enemy rushing to get you at once.  In 4e, I have to use waves or suffer from "I move this guy here, opportunity attack, this guy here, interrupt, this guy there, okay another interrupt, this guy..."So Essentials keeps a newly created player from having more wealth than a player who actually levels up?  That's another hit on the parcel system as devised; in a 10 parcel system with the level + 5 rule, two people in a 5 man party will always come out empty handed.DM: Player B has blinding sickness.  Make a heal check.Player A: I'm a level 8 cleric and use my heal check in his place.  +5 from wisdom, +4 level bonus, +5 trained bonus, the other 5 characters aid me for a total +24 bonus.  I roll a 2 and succeed.Based on the leaked DM sheet, essentials reduces the difficulty for skill checks.  Say I give a character a level 5 hard disease which is a DC 22 to beat.  A level 1 cleric has +3 from wisdom, +5 trained, and everyone in the five man party aids him for +18.  You succeed 80% of the time making even the deadliest effect trivial.I didn't even count the other typical bonuses such as background, feats, and items.That's the exact same thing.  "Don't expect to use this material because I'm changing it *presents printed paper of changes*"Perhaps but my point being that there are more robust games out there.  I'd rather play those.I can list the number of times my players use an item's daily powers on one hand.  It basically amounts to the same number of times a player normally uses a daily (read: when facing a solo or overwhelming minions).Items with daily powers is 4e's worst idea ever.  People don't like using one-shot items.  With 4e, you always have a trick up your sleeve making one-shots even more unappealing than normal until the inevitable "boss" fight.  The rules which say you can accept the miss and keep your weapon?  Not too exciting there.Your rebuttal will probably be "then houserule it so weapons break regardless."  Whatever you house rule, the fact that the game gives you the option of not breaking a weapon proves the designer's intent already.  I already explained the flaws of the condition track when it comes to skill checks.  I don't care for the 50/50 aspect of saves either unless every poison I make implies a penalty to the saving throw.  I don't see a point considering poisons do nothing but deal damage (which is instantly healed) or inflicts a condition like immobilized (which is useless outside combat).  I could make a trap that inflicts a disease or saps healing surges but the party will just leave and return the next day.DM: You find a chute in the corner.Player A: Dungeoneering check.  25, master information.  Tell me about it.  Oh yeah, everyone aids my perception and I get a 30.  I pretty much spot every trap in the room including the treasure you've probably hidden in here.You forgot the saving throws for those.  I have a 50% chance to contract the disease rolled once after combat.Becoming infected can be debilitating but thankfully it's a minimum 80% check with any leader in the party to completely remove it.  With essentials, I can't see anyone dedicated in a skill ever failing.Honestly, no.  I never did until I started playing as DM.  I can't vouch for everyone, but it's not like it matters.  If I give you a sword you're not going to figure out it's a flametongue +1 sword unless you pay a sage, wait a week, and see if he can discover the command word.The adventurer's vaults are good sources but they're trumped by the combination of material found in PHB 1-3 and all the Powers books.  I haven't incorporated artifacts into my games so the DMG's lists aren't appealing.I have 2 sources of items that I can reasonably expect the players not to thumb through and surprise them with vs. 10+ sources that don't.I don't know what your point is here.  I don't need a magic weapon to damage an enemy in 4e.  I most certainly need it to fight anything that's not an animal in AD&D.  Even when that magic item overstays its welcome I can give it to my henchman and increase his base loyalty.  I could keep it and use it as a bargaining chip when I demand the services of a demon.In 4e, I can sell it for 1/5 of its base price which buys me an item 5 levels lower.  Joy.Perhaps I wasn't clear but I very well consider DMGII to be part of the "default" rules.  They wouldn't have named it that, thus insinuating it's part of the "core" game, if it wasn't.Knowing that your equipment was just as important as your skill.  Or have we forgotten that, by default, 4E assumes humans can survive 3 days before dehydrating which is an average of 30 day process before dying?If combat is so demanding, why am I getting fewer rewards?  Players will grow frustrated that their hard work amounts to nothing.  No, it means you'll have to ensure players don't get stiffed because Player A got a level + 5 items the past three levels while Player C received level + 1 items the entire time. But it's not changing the style or feel.  Your changes, if applied by themselves, will do nothing to make me feel like I'm playing AD&D.  Period.  If you wanted to make me feel like I was playing an older edition, you would have to do a lot more than change how healing and identifying items works.  And Crowking pretty much wrote an entire OGL game... unless you consider things like Castles & Crusades to be nothing but houserules.I ran it straight from the book.  Now you know one person.Without splat books galore?  A lot. I ran three. With splat books like Players Options and all that garbage?  None.  I've also never seen a Basic game reach immortal levels.  My statement was a subjective one and has nothing to do with the topic so I'll let it drop.But I'm still playing 4e and nothing has changed that feeling.  I now have to tally my supplies and a few other conditions but if you told me "How does it stack with 2e Dark Sun?" I would say "On a completely separate level."My argument is that your changes aren't enough.  It simply doesn't give me the AD&D feel I'm looking for.This is another subjective opinion as it's obvious AD&D meant different things to different people.  I already told you my gripes but still magic, permanent conditions, hiring out helpers, and not relying on skills as a catch all for everything haven't been answered.I'll say the same thing about you.  Mouse Guard is entirely different from Burning Wheel.  That's not an exception, that's modular.  DMGII replaces magic items with the bonuses characters should be receiving.  That's an exception based design.So what's the difference between modular and exception?  You don't step on the toes of another rule in modular.  In AD&D, a modular game, I can add a rule without conflicting with another and use them both at the same time.  In 4e, if I want inherent bonuses, I have to remove magic items; I can't have both without also boosting monsters.Exception based rules don't create anything.  That's why they're called exceptions.  "This rule takes effect... unless another rule says it doesn't."  If I made a derivative of 4e I would have to take combat and powers with me.  Without it, it's not even 4e.If you say so.  Excuse me, I'm going to use my nature lore to completely map out my back yard.  What kind of bluff do I need to convince the police officer the blunt in my mouth was actually a toothpick?  An perception DC 12 is enough to see the barely noticeable pot hole in the ground, yes?  *Yawn* I don't feel like talking to the dragon, I roll diplomacy and handle it myself.Alternatively they could have given me the option to run away with the response "You run from adventure and will make nothing of yourself.  Start again."  Mentzer's basic set, the set which 4e reuses art from, did it.  I don't think it's a strawman, I think it's very important facet of the game's intended design.  "No, you don't run from danger ever!"By all means, please post how you did it.  I hope it was more interesting than +2 con, +2 dex, encounter power "flaming punch."It's cheaper.  And Lanefan listed about 20 and other posters have contributed what they think might work.  You're not the only person whose posted here.I still stand by my statement.  I play 4e to play 4e.  Changes to the game, even after playing Dark Sun, don't change the fact that I'm quite well aware I'm playing 4e.  I have yet to see house rules that alter the way 4e functions and is successful at it.  If anyone wants to try and shut me up permanently, I invite you to do so.  I will eat my favorite hat and tip a glass in your honor.While you're busy making it, I'm going to go over here and just run the game you're trying to poorly emulate.</blockquote>

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