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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Benimoto" data-source="post: 4013845" data-attributes="member: 40093">The thing is, and this is a point people were making back when SAGA had just came out, this is the whole point of a level-based system.  My 3rd edition wizard, now 10th level, hasn't drawn a weapon for the past 6-8 levels, and yet my melee attack skill keeps going up.  The whole point of being higher level is that you're better at things.As to your example with the two warriors' swim skills, this hasn't changed at all.  In 3rd edition, if neither of them put any points into the skill, all other things being equal, they would have the same skill.  In 4th edition, it's the same.  The difference is that a 10th level desert warrior in 4th edition might (emphasis on might, since I'm just assuming the skills might work similarly to SAGA) be as good at swimming as a 1st level trained swimmer.  Or slightly worse, if the DM takes the fact that the character's never been in the water before as a unfavorable circumstance and imposes a -2 penalty.  I think that's fine, and not laughable.  The 10th level character is assumed to be capable in a wide variety of things, and it's not the system's fault for assuming that after 10 levels of play, the character might have a better idea of how to swim than even a trained novice.I think both systems are inferior to some sort of ideal system that rates exactly how much your character values each skill and how much experience, training and natural capacity the character has in the area, but both the 3rd edition system and the 4th edition are acceptable compromises to me.Even in SAGA, and presumably in 4th edition, characters can pick trained skills.  I don't think you can train non-class skills.  My opinion is that the system leads to roughly the same results, without the bother of skill points.</blockquote>

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