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<blockquote data-quote="Thasmodious" data-source="post: 4230960" data-attributes="member: 63272">I keep seeing this and similar statements throughout this thread and the other one.&nbsp; It actually seems to argue well for the new system.&nbsp; Few people are lamenting the &quot;loss&quot; of NG or LN or CN or NE, just LE and CG.&nbsp; Of course, they haven't actually been lost.&nbsp; There is a new system, they didn't take things away.&nbsp; Instead of 9 arbitrary, made up divisions there are 5.&nbsp; You can still write up the worst tyrant your game world has ever seen, and under the alignment line in your little form you can write: Evil.&nbsp; The two axis were never equal and the law/chaos axis was never consistent.&nbsp; It was warped by the good/axis at all times.&nbsp; Chaotic Evil was considered (rightly so) destructive.&nbsp; But CG wasn't.&nbsp; It was considered independent.&nbsp; The lawful spectrum was inconsistent.&nbsp; LG was the height of ethics, compassionate justice and order.&nbsp; LN was the bureaucrat, the police officer, societies law above all over consideration.&nbsp; Then LE was the tyrant, order through subjugation, power through the might of social order, etc.&nbsp; Lawful is inconsistent as an ideal throughout the spectrum, it is wholly a byproduct of the good-evil axis.Same for chaos.&nbsp; CG was the individualist do-gooder.&nbsp; CN was practically considered insane (and called as much in previous editions) and random.&nbsp; And CE was all about destruction.&nbsp; Chaotic was an inconsistent descriptor that described a degree along the good-evil axis.&nbsp; The good and evil axis was entirely consistent.&nbsp; Good was good.&nbsp; There were different approaches to good, but the end goals were the same.&nbsp; All good characters were ultimately on the same &quot;side&quot;.&nbsp; Evil was evil in the same way, while there were different approaches as well.&nbsp; That was a consistent and solid axis.&nbsp; You can't say the same for lawful and chaotic types.&nbsp; I don't think the new system is perfect either, and likely will simply not use alignment in my games except in a vague sense.&nbsp; But nothing has been taken away or combined.&nbsp; The descriptive spectrum has been redesigned.&nbsp; Looking back along the old law-chaos axis - a tyrant is Evil, a bureaucrat is unaligned, and a person of the highest moral and ethical standards is LG (which is not &quot;gooder than good&quot;, its about that character believing that ultimate good comes through social order).&nbsp; A freedom loving do gooder is Good, an individualist above all else is Unaligned, and someone or thing devoted to destruction is CE.&nbsp; The designers were right.&nbsp; There isn't must difference between NG and CG or NE and LE.&nbsp; A NE noble who gains power over a province would rule it pretty much the same as a LE character would.&nbsp; Sure, one might actually believe in his own brand of brutal justice more, but both will use the tyrannical social order to subjugate their people and maintain control.&nbsp; A NG and CG character either one would help the downtrodden, stand up against social injustice, etc., even while having slightly different social philosophies overall.&nbsp; So just going with Good and Evil still leaves you plenty of room to craft a personality under those broad umbrellas and still have the descriptor carry some meaning.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Thasmodious, post: 4230960, member: 63272"] I keep seeing this and similar statements throughout this thread and the other one. It actually seems to argue well for the new system. Few people are lamenting the "loss" of NG or LN or CN or NE, just LE and CG. Of course, they haven't actually been lost. There is a new system, they didn't take things away. Instead of 9 arbitrary, made up divisions there are 5. You can still write up the worst tyrant your game world has ever seen, and under the alignment line in your little form you can write: Evil. The two axis were never equal and the law/chaos axis was never consistent. It was warped by the good/axis at all times. Chaotic Evil was considered (rightly so) destructive. But CG wasn't. It was considered independent. The lawful spectrum was inconsistent. LG was the height of ethics, compassionate justice and order. LN was the bureaucrat, the police officer, societies law above all over consideration. Then LE was the tyrant, order through subjugation, power through the might of social order, etc. Lawful is inconsistent as an ideal throughout the spectrum, it is wholly a byproduct of the good-evil axis. Same for chaos. CG was the individualist do-gooder. CN was practically considered insane (and called as much in previous editions) and random. And CE was all about destruction. Chaotic was an inconsistent descriptor that described a degree along the good-evil axis. The good and evil axis was entirely consistent. Good was good. There were different approaches to good, but the end goals were the same. All good characters were ultimately on the same "side". Evil was evil in the same way, while there were different approaches as well. That was a consistent and solid axis. You can't say the same for lawful and chaotic types. I don't think the new system is perfect either, and likely will simply not use alignment in my games except in a vague sense. But nothing has been taken away or combined. The descriptive spectrum has been redesigned. Looking back along the old law-chaos axis - a tyrant is Evil, a bureaucrat is unaligned, and a person of the highest moral and ethical standards is LG (which is not "gooder than good", its about that character believing that ultimate good comes through social order). A freedom loving do gooder is Good, an individualist above all else is Unaligned, and someone or thing devoted to destruction is CE. The designers were right. There isn't must difference between NG and CG or NE and LE. A NE noble who gains power over a province would rule it pretty much the same as a LE character would. Sure, one might actually believe in his own brand of brutal justice more, but both will use the tyrannical social order to subjugate their people and maintain control. A NG and CG character either one would help the downtrodden, stand up against social injustice, etc., even while having slightly different social philosophies overall. So just going with Good and Evil still leaves you plenty of room to craft a personality under those broad umbrellas and still have the descriptor carry some meaning. [/QUOTE]

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