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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ForeverSlayer" data-source="post: 5898800" data-attributes="member: 91812">Curious. I play Pathfinder on a regular basis and I don't find anything that is broken with those two spells. Let's take a look at them.SleepSchool enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1,sorcerer/wizard 1Casting Time 1 roundComponents V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)Area one or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burstDuration 1 min./levelSaving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yesA sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 HD ofcreatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Amongcreatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s pointof origin are affected first. HD that are not sufficient to affecta creature are wasted. Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slappingor wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise doesnot. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of theaid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures,constructs, or undead creatures.Let's look at Sleep first. Okay it affects a total of 4HD creatures. 4 1HD creatures, 2 2 HD creatures etc... Now they get Will saves, it requires a standard action from a comrade to wake them, and if they are hit they awaken immediately. Sure you could coup de grace but that takes a full round action. What's wrong with the Wizard sleeping enemies while the others in the group run up and finish them off? Would that be the same as controlling the battle field like 4th edition Wizards can do? Not seeing anything at all broken with this spell. I have used the spell several times and I can tell you that it doesn't always work and when it does it's not game breaking. Charm PersonSchool enchantment (charm) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 1,sorcerer/wizard 1Casting Time 1 standard actionComponents V, SRange close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)Target one humanoid creatureDuration 1 hour/levelSaving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yesThis charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trustedfriend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If thecreature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or yourallies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as ifit were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in themost favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but youmust win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anythingit wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affectedcreature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but itmight be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing.Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmedperson breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language tocommunicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.What's game breaking about Charm Person? You can't control the actions of the person that is affected, if you are in the middle of combat and you use this spell they receive a +5 bonus to their save. You must make a charisma check to actually give it an order and you can't order it to hurt itself. I think the problem here is someone not really knowing just how the spell works or someone's interpretation of the spell working different than the RAW. Please explain in a little more detail how these spells are so "game breaking".</blockquote>

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