Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Nightfly" data-source="post: 9636663" data-attributes="member: 89601">These are clever observations, and I tip my hat to you. But I think in every case you mentioned, there's some other factor that would argue against them counting as &quot;humanoid&quot; for the purpose of Hold Person. A lich certainly has a human-like form, but it's also obviously something else. And if we have to choose, I think it's more &quot;undead&quot; than &quot;humanoid&quot;. I also don't think it can truly be both -- an undead can't be a member of a humanoid species, and therefore doesn't meet the full definition of &quot;humanoid&quot;. A snowman is humanoid in one sense, but definitely not in another. Ditto for barbed devils, iron golems, djinn, and so on. They're partially humanoid, but not completely.But aren't goblins completely humanoid? I'm literally not sure what &quot;humanoid&quot; means in D&amp;D if goblins don't count as one. They're part of a fantasy human-ish species, like hobbits or dwarves. Even if we accept that goblins are &quot;fey&quot;, I don't see that they're more fey than elves. So why do elves, hobbits, and dwarves count and goblins don't?To underscore that point: Crawford said that Hold Person will always work on a PC under 2024 rules, even if the player is a goblin or another species that otherwise doesn't count as humanoid.&nbsp; That's pointlessly illogical and confusing. I'm worried about the new player who (very reasonably) casts Hold Person on a hobgoblin expecting it to work and (pretty unreasonably) being told that it doesn't, for the first time in 50 years of D&amp;D.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Nightfly, post: 9636663, member: 89601"] These are clever observations, and I tip my hat to you. But I think in every case you mentioned, there's some other factor that would argue against them counting as "humanoid" for the purpose of Hold Person. A lich certainly has a human-like form, but it's also obviously something else. And if we have to choose, I think it's more "undead" than "humanoid". I also don't think it can truly be both -- an undead can't be a member of a humanoid species, and therefore doesn't meet the full definition of "humanoid". A snowman is humanoid in one sense, but definitely not in another. Ditto for barbed devils, iron golems, djinn, and so on. They're partially humanoid, but not completely. But aren't goblins [I]completely [/I]humanoid? I'm literally not sure what "humanoid" means in D&D if goblins don't count as one. They're part of a fantasy human-ish species, like hobbits or dwarves. Even if we accept that goblins are "fey", I don't see that they're more fey than elves. So why do elves, hobbits, and dwarves count and goblins don't? To underscore that point: Crawford said that Hold Person will always work on a PC under 2024 rules, even if the player is a goblin or another species that otherwise doesn't count as humanoid. That's pointlessly illogical and confusing. I'm worried about the new player who (very reasonably) casts Hold Person on a hobgoblin expecting it to work and (pretty unreasonably) being told that it doesn't, for the first time in 50 years of D&D. [/QUOTE]

Verification