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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sylrae" data-source="post: 5002409" data-attributes="member: 48520">Ew. not my cup of tea. To me that's like: We'll give you this 2nd level spell, but label it a 6th level spell. You'll never take it.Honestly, going this route, you may as well just remove them from the game, as theyre then nerfed to the point of being <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.If you nerf too many things in this manner, the Wizard becomes so bad as to not be a player class. Then a 10th Level wizard ceases to be a 10th level character, and becomes like, a 6th level character.Personally, here are my thoughts, this concept depends on use limits:If casters can cast the spells as often as fighters can swing their sword, than the spells effectiveness should be based on the effectiveness of a similarly powered fighter attack. If the fighter is about 10% likely to 1-hit kill someone in this scenario, the Wizard should have similar odds (assuming using a single-target spell). The wizards attacks being ranged is mitigated by the fact that wizards are impossibly frail.Hopefully we can agree on that point. Now, in reality, Wizards attacks are more limited than a fighter's. A wizard gets his x/day, then he's OUT! I hear tell of people resting or going back to town when the wizard runs out of spells. That just seems ridiculous to me, because of the following: So for argument's sake let's assume that a wizard has a limited number of spells per day and he needs to manage them, and that the DM isn't allowing unlimited refueling the wizard in every situation.Now. A wizard has a limited number of magic attacks. Therefore the attacks should be more effective than the fighter's attacks, and theoretically, just a about as effective as sneak attack, then the wizard's attacks should be just as likely to one-shot an opponent as a rogue's sneak attack.Therefore, Damage spells damage should be comparable to the rogue's damage output for the same amount of time. If its a full-round spell it should be as effective as a full-round for the rogue. (More range, more targets, etc should adjust damage downward).For things like SoS spells, it should work similarly. It should have the same odds of killing them as the sneak attack. But a sneak attack is still useful if it doesn't kill/polymorph into a goat/whatever. Either the SoS needs to still have gadient amounts of usefulness, or be more likely to kill in one shot than the rogue's sneak attack.As a work/not work it needs to be a smaller chance of success than the rogue's partial damage, but a considerably higher chance of success than the rogue's chance to one-shot.If you make it do damage, or ability damage, it needs to be easier to hit people, but not always goign to cause a loss. If it doesnt cause a loss, it should make future win attempts easier.  I like it!If you made the time be "Concentration", you could allow a larger number of or more powerful undead to be created, because they will tie up the wizard's actinos every round. It's a great counterbalance!Hell! for summoning it could work great too! I can summon my demon horde, and direct them, but I'm unable to do anything else in t he meantime. Things could be summoned for longer amounts of time, (possibly indefinitely), so long as the wizard is keeping them under control.And as for other possible limits, if the caster is not controlling them, then they could instead of just going away, become loose. *evil grin*Often not, especially with giantsMost of them just pull a number out of their asses. If they used a system like UK's CR guide, the numbers would be more standardized (you still need to be reasonable though).This could work, mayhaps.I can see some logic issues with Wall of stone. If it's permanent, why does anyone mine minerals, or build castles manually? I support Wall of Stone being temporary, but that does not mean it should necessarily be the same spell level.Full round casting could work maybe, but that's effectively the same as just releveling the spell. they could quicken it and cast it faster at a higher level. So you're really just saying "make it a higher level spell".Hmm, you did just give me an Idea though: Reverse Metamagic (Someone else probably already came up with this, but you never know)Single Round Duration: This makes the spell virtually useless. If Petrify is a 1 round duration spell, it's not worth being level 7(I think its 7, I dont have the book in front of me), it's like, a 2nd level spell. Some things can be scaled down in power. Many permanent effects can be scaled down. I agree. Create Undead is scaled down, true. But you don't want CR 1 player summoning up 1-4 CR 1 Monsters. That just doesn't work. I'd argue that most of the time CR is not accurately guaged. *shrug* Agreed, but what's the point of having saves if youre immune based on your bad saves? This is the problem that is presented when you provide immunities to ANYTHING. There should be few immunities.Unless the effect makes no sense to work, then it shouldnt be immune.Fire Elementals: Obviously should be immune to fire. I'd argue it should heal them. Dragons: Nooooot reaaaally, but people just like to make dragons awesome. fire Resistance for the red dragon? absolutely. full-on Immunity? no.Part of the problem, is this obsession with giving immunities all willy-nilly. There's a feat that makes yoru fire spells ignore fire immunity. It doesn't make your fire any hotter, or do any more damage, it just makes your fire "super fire". Where is the logic behind this? There is none.</blockquote>

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