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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 9243973" data-attributes="member: 23751">The two biggest issues with CR in my opinion are as follows, and you touched on the first one above.&nbsp; First, every class is different and has varying strengths and weaknesses.&nbsp; You might have a group of PCs with low wisdom and no proficiency in wisdom saves, so the monster with a DC of their level that has it's main attack using a strong wisdom save DC will be significantly harder for them than the DC indicates.&nbsp; I don't see how a DC system can account for all the variables involved in class/subclass combinations.Second, player skill has a significant impact, but there's no way to account for that in any system.&nbsp; The DM has to be aware and adjust for that himself.Your second point above isn't that big of a deal to me personally.&nbsp; I just look at those abilities and knowing the PC saves involved, figure out the likely number of failed saves in the initial use of the ability or frequency of a continue use of an ability like ghoul paralysis.&nbsp; Then I look at the probably number of PCs left and their capabilities to see if they have a chance, will still do well, will be challenged, etc.&nbsp; I also need to know if there are abilities in the group that can undo the monster special attack, because that matters as well.CR for me has always simply been a stepping off point.&nbsp; I start looking at monsters +/- 3 CR from the group and then start comparing strengths and weaknesses.&nbsp; CR ballparks monsters and then I have to fine tune things.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 9243973, member: 23751"] The two biggest issues with CR in my opinion are as follows, and you touched on the first one above. First, every class is different and has varying strengths and weaknesses. You might have a group of PCs with low wisdom and no proficiency in wisdom saves, so the monster with a DC of their level that has it's main attack using a strong wisdom save DC will be significantly harder for them than the DC indicates. I don't see how a DC system can account for all the variables involved in class/subclass combinations. Second, player skill has a significant impact, but there's no way to account for that in any system. The DM has to be aware and adjust for that himself. Your second point above isn't that big of a deal to me personally. I just look at those abilities and knowing the PC saves involved, figure out the likely number of failed saves in the initial use of the ability or frequency of a continue use of an ability like ghoul paralysis. Then I look at the probably number of PCs left and their capabilities to see if they have a chance, will still do well, will be challenged, etc. I also need to know if there are abilities in the group that can undo the monster special attack, because that matters as well. CR for me has always simply been a stepping off point. I start looking at monsters +/- 3 CR from the group and then start comparing strengths and weaknesses. CR ballparks monsters and then I have to fine tune things. [/QUOTE]

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