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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 9281774" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>I really don't like the 2 dimensional matrix mearls is using here.</p><p></p><p>[PC level, Monster CR] -> CPs</p><p></p><p>It <em>enforces</em> table lookups by the user (either automated or not) and by design <em>encourages</em> tiny tweaks in the values.</p><p></p><p>[spoiler]And if you are going to rely on automated systems, at some point the answer is "enter PCs and NPCs into a combat simulator to determine difficulty".</p><p></p><p>Even if the combat simulator answer works, I personally want an analytic one, simply so I can understand encounter balancing myself when designing the encounter.[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>We should resist lookup tables with all of our might, even at the cost of accuracy.</p><p></p><p>...</p><p></p><p>It looks like this is based off of monster threat volume -- the total damage a monster does in a fight -- with in turn is basically (HP times DPR) with fudge factors for accuracy/defences and number of monsters. You can do a non-linear function of (HP times DPR) to get variants.</p><p></p><p>The CR -> XP map looks a lot like a measure of monster volume, one that doesn't handle monster numbers well -- hence the encounter size multiplier.</p><p></p><p>What <strong>I</strong> want in a CR system is one where I can take the PCs, <strong>add up values</strong> from some table based off of their level, and get a budget.</p><p></p><p>I can then take monsters, <strong>add up some value</strong> for each monster based off its CR, and compare the budgets.</p><p></p><p>From comparing the two, I get a difficulty. </p><p></p><p>I do not want encounter size multipliers. Those are evidence they used the wrong "monster volume" values.</p><p></p><p>Difficulty must be linear in application if not in value: Difficulty( MonsterA ) + Difficulty( MonsterB ) = Difficulty( MonsterA + MonsterB )</p><p></p><p>This means that 2 Difficulty( MonsterA ) is the difficulty of 2 MonsterAs - so if Difficulty( MonsterC ) = 2 Difficulty(MonsterA), it doesn't mean it has twice the HP or damage or level, it means it is as hard as fighting 2 MonsterAs at once.</p><p></p><p>I do not want to do a (monster level) x (PC level) table to get my values, because I want to build encounters and set their difficulty without knowing exactly what PCs are fighting them at what level. I can look at a single value and say "ok, this is gonna be hard for 5 level 4 PCs" after I calculate it, I don't want to do a distinct lookup for every PC level and count to work out how hard it would be.</p><p></p><p>I am ok with the result being approximate! There is RNG in 5e. I just want a guide, not a promise.</p><p></p><p>...</p><p></p><p>Like, lets look at the 5e monster XP table and fix it so that we don't have encounter size multipliers.</p><p></p><p>And lets assume that 5 monsters being worth 10x the XP of one monster is the correct curve.</p><p></p><p>So 5 CR1/2 is worth 1000 XP, a bit less than a CR 4 monster. Close enough.</p><p></p><p>5 Difficulty( CR1/2 ) = Difficulty( 5 CR1/2 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 4 )</p><p>5 Difficulty( CR 4 ) =Difficulty( 5 CR 4 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 9.5 )</p><p>5 Difficulty( CR 9.5 ) =Difficulty( 5 CR 9.5 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 23 )</p><p></p><p>So we have the start of a curve:</p><p>CR1/2: 50 Difficulty</p><p>CR4: 250 Difficulty</p><p>CR9.5: 1250 Difficulty</p><p>CR23.5: 6750 Difficulty</p><p></p><p>For pairs of monsters</p><p>100 = 2 Difficulty( CR 1/2 ) = Difficulty( 2 CR 1/2 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 1.5 )</p><p>200 = 2 Difficulty( CR 1.5 ) = Difficulty( 2 CR 1.5 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 3.5 )</p><p>500 = 2 Difficulty( CR 4 ) = Difficulty( 4 CR 4 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 7.5 )</p><p>2500 = 2 Difficulty( CR 9.5 ) = Difficulty( 2 CR 9.5 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 16.5 )</p><p></p><p>So we have these difficulty calculations:</p><p></p><p><strong>CR 0.5: 50</strong></p><p><strong>CR 1.5: 100</strong></p><p><strong>CR 3.5: 200</strong></p><p><strong>CR 4: 250</strong></p><p><strong>CR 7.5: 500</strong></p><p><strong>CR 9.5: 1250</strong></p><p><strong>CR 16.5: 2500</strong></p><p><strong>CR 23.5: 6750</strong></p><p></p><p>we can either interpolate, or find a function that fits them well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 9281774, member: 72555"] I really don't like the 2 dimensional matrix mearls is using here. [PC level, Monster CR] -> CPs It [I]enforces[/I] table lookups by the user (either automated or not) and by design [I]encourages[/I] tiny tweaks in the values. [spoiler]And if you are going to rely on automated systems, at some point the answer is "enter PCs and NPCs into a combat simulator to determine difficulty". Even if the combat simulator answer works, I personally want an analytic one, simply so I can understand encounter balancing myself when designing the encounter.[/spoiler] We should resist lookup tables with all of our might, even at the cost of accuracy. ... It looks like this is based off of monster threat volume -- the total damage a monster does in a fight -- with in turn is basically (HP times DPR) with fudge factors for accuracy/defences and number of monsters. You can do a non-linear function of (HP times DPR) to get variants. The CR -> XP map looks a lot like a measure of monster volume, one that doesn't handle monster numbers well -- hence the encounter size multiplier. What [b]I[/b] want in a CR system is one where I can take the PCs, [b]add up values[/b] from some table based off of their level, and get a budget. I can then take monsters, [b]add up some value[/b] for each monster based off its CR, and compare the budgets. From comparing the two, I get a difficulty. I do not want encounter size multipliers. Those are evidence they used the wrong "monster volume" values. Difficulty must be linear in application if not in value: Difficulty( MonsterA ) + Difficulty( MonsterB ) = Difficulty( MonsterA + MonsterB ) This means that 2 Difficulty( MonsterA ) is the difficulty of 2 MonsterAs - so if Difficulty( MonsterC ) = 2 Difficulty(MonsterA), it doesn't mean it has twice the HP or damage or level, it means it is as hard as fighting 2 MonsterAs at once. I do not want to do a (monster level) x (PC level) table to get my values, because I want to build encounters and set their difficulty without knowing exactly what PCs are fighting them at what level. I can look at a single value and say "ok, this is gonna be hard for 5 level 4 PCs" after I calculate it, I don't want to do a distinct lookup for every PC level and count to work out how hard it would be. I am ok with the result being approximate! There is RNG in 5e. I just want a guide, not a promise. ... Like, lets look at the 5e monster XP table and fix it so that we don't have encounter size multipliers. And lets assume that 5 monsters being worth 10x the XP of one monster is the correct curve. So 5 CR1/2 is worth 1000 XP, a bit less than a CR 4 monster. Close enough. 5 Difficulty( CR1/2 ) = Difficulty( 5 CR1/2 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 4 ) 5 Difficulty( CR 4 ) =Difficulty( 5 CR 4 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 9.5 ) 5 Difficulty( CR 9.5 ) =Difficulty( 5 CR 9.5 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 23 ) So we have the start of a curve: CR1/2: 50 Difficulty CR4: 250 Difficulty CR9.5: 1250 Difficulty CR23.5: 6750 Difficulty For pairs of monsters 100 = 2 Difficulty( CR 1/2 ) = Difficulty( 2 CR 1/2 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 1.5 ) 200 = 2 Difficulty( CR 1.5 ) = Difficulty( 2 CR 1.5 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 3.5 ) 500 = 2 Difficulty( CR 4 ) = Difficulty( 4 CR 4 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 7.5 ) 2500 = 2 Difficulty( CR 9.5 ) = Difficulty( 2 CR 9.5 ) =~ Difficulty( CR 16.5 ) So we have these difficulty calculations: [B]CR 0.5: 50 CR 1.5: 100 CR 3.5: 200 CR 4: 250 CR 7.5: 500 CR 9.5: 1250 CR 16.5: 2500 CR 23.5: 6750[/B] we can either interpolate, or find a function that fits them well. [/QUOTE]
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