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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashtagon" data-source="post: 5044308" data-attributes="member: 72335">My current houserule set allows for a feint to be Bluff vs either Bluff or BAB (choose one). I'm not overly satisfied with this either.I assume that normal swordplay or other melee weapon combat incorporates a certain amount of feinting anyway, and that an actual feint manoeuvre involves a more specific action where it is the primary thing you are doing in that round (as opposed to primarily trying to hit him). Combined with this is the observation that the mechanics as written give very little benefit to any class other than a rogue (who can use sneak attack as a follow-up), so the system should make it easier for rogues to feint.What's been suggested in this thread?Feint Attack BonusesBluff (RAW)BAB + Dex mod; synergy from Bluff, Sleight of Hand (Sepulchrave II)Bluff, Concentration or Intimidate (Hawken)1/2 BAB + Bluff (StreamOfTheSky)BAB + Cha mod; synergy from Bluff (nonsi256)BAB + Cha mod (Kerrick) Feint Defence BonusesBAB + Sense Motive (RAW)BAB or Sense Motive (Celebrim)BAB + Dex mod; synergy from Sense Motive (Sepulchrave II)Bluff, Concentration or Intimidate (Hawken)1/2 BAB + Sense Motive (StreamOfTheSky)BAB + Wis mod; synergy from Bluff (nonsi256)  BAB + Wis mod (Kerrick)  Quite a collection of different opinions there (apologies if I missed anyone or misrepresented anyone).In terms of ability scores, there is a consensus on Cha vs Wis, if anything is used at all there.wrt skills, Intimidate and Concentration seem a little outside of the core concept to me, and I certainly don't buy the idea that a skill automatically provides understanding of how to defend against an attack by that same skill. The number of playground bullies who run crying when seriously challenged is testament to that as far as the Intimidate skill is concerned, and I see Concentration as much too inward-focused to be useful in making an attack.This leaves Bluff and/or Sleight of Hand as possible attack skills for feint, defended against by Sense Motive and/or Concentration.Putting it together...(option a)Attack: BAB or Bluff ranks + Cha modDefence: BAB or Sense Motive ranks + Wis modor...(option b)Attack: BAB or Bluff ranks or Sleight of Hand ranks + Cha modDefence: BAB or Sense Motive ranks or Concentration ranks + Wis modOption A is simpler, and stays closer to the core concept of the original rule, whiel also being equally balanced (feint became a losing proposition under RAW; once the defender had modest bonuses in BAB and Bluff, he would be impossible to Bluff against). option B incorporates some of the other skills suggested as reasonable influences on the feint action.If you include the Cha/Wis ability modifier, you shouldn't count an ability modifier again from the skills - only skill ranks should be counted, without the modifier from their relevant ability score.</blockquote>

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