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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawken" data-source="post: 5044431" data-attributes="member: 23619">That's because you're reacting to the statement and not thinking about it. Intimidate is about scaring people. Its about making them think that you're going to do something to them (whether you really do or not). Thus, it is perfectly acceptable as an alternative skill to perform a Feint. Likewise, because someone trained in Intimidate understands what is involved in the skill, they know what the skill is about, they will understand and recognize when someone is attempting to use that skill against them--thus, a logical reason why it could be used to oppose Feint (and someone else attempting to Intimidate them). Actually, there's nothing in the PHB description of the Concentration skill to indicate 'patience'. If there was, the ability associated with it would be Wisdom and not Constitution. And actually, the very FIRST sentence of the skill reads, "You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted...". A Feint is a distraction. Thus, per the PHB, Concentration would be a perfect skill to use to oppose a Feint. And, as I've pointed out, since a Feint is a psychological tactic, it would actually make sense if wizards were some of the best around at recognizing it. And you could use the same logic that I used in the paragraph above with Intimidate, that someone skilled enough in using Concentration is skilled enough to recognize a Feint attempt, and because they can do they, they are skilled enough to know what it takes to perform a Feint against someone else. My reasons for selecting these two skills for Feint, aside from the fact that they make logical, reasonable sense to use, is that these two skills are class skills for EVERY core class. Everyone has either Concentration or Intimidate as a class skill. So, suddenly, Feint becomes a tactic everyone can use. Does it mean they will, no, but it means they can if they need to and expect a fair chance of success doing it. Plus, the method I outlined above does keep the process simple and intuitive, very easy to remember. I think the option should be included to do maybe an extra 1d6 of damage rather than flat footed just to make feint worthwhile. Flat footed is only of direct benefit to rogues. Warriors have a high enough BAB that losing Dex to AC doesn't really matter and spellcasters either don't need to make attack rolls or they make ranged touch attack which are brutally simple to make in most cases. Also, your idea of "trading" out your next lowest attack is not practical. With a 25% chance less of hitting, and being able to trade it off to make sure your more accurate attack hits, well, that's one of those 'if its this good, its broken' kind of things. As well as having the check modified by the BAB. As I've explained feinting is a combat tactic, but not a combat application, it is a psychological technique not a form of attack. Celebrim, your suggestion about Disguise is flawed in that the skill is just about changing one's appearances not actions. Sleight of Hand would be more accurate as far as which skill does that, but the flaw with that selection is that only bards and rogues take that skill and probably fewer than 50% of them have any significant ranks in it. Sense Motive or Concentration would be the most logical defenses, but few people realistically have many ranks in Sense Motive and only spellcasters have ranks in Concentration. That doesn't solve the problem behind the problem.El Mahdi, the thing is feinting doesn't make one better at attacking, it reduces the effectiveness of the defender's ability to protect himself or possibly interferes with his ability to effectively attack. In essence, it is a distraction. Anyone can make a distraction. Anyone can fall for a distraction. The obvious problem being the mechanics of the Feint option. But the underlying issue is about who is going to do it and who is going to have a fair chance of not falling for it. Under RAW, rogues are the ultimate feinters, and paladins (that actually max out Sense Motive) are the ultimate resisters of feinting. That's it. 2 out of 11 classes. Fighters, Barbarians and Rangers make the next best feint-resisters but without being able to put ranks in SM, they are at a clear disadvantage despite their BAB (skill modifiers rise MUCH faster than BAB anyway). There have been many passable fixes for the mechanic, what remains is to fix the underlying problem. My proposition allows for every class to participate in the feint/resist issue and it does so fairly (skills involved are class skills for all classes). However, no one else has really agreed with it. The next best equitable thing would be to make feint a saving throw. Treat it as a Will save with the following two exceptions: 1) If your BAB is +1/level for at least half or more of your levels, you have the option to treat the save as if it were a Fort save. 2) Rogues can resist Feint attempts with their Reflex save. This way, everyone has roughly the same odds of resisting it and no one is at a significant disadvantage. A character performs a Feint as a Move action. If the character chooses, they can perform a Feint as part of a Full Round action, if they are capable of making more than one attack in a Full Attack action. If done as part of a Full Round action, the character makes his Feint attempt and immediately follows up with a single attack made at his highest BAB. When a character is subject to a Feint, they make a saving throw as follows below. Here's a suggestion for the formula for the DC:10 + 1/2 character level + Cha mod. If the save fails, the target suffers one of the following effects, chosen by the person making the feint.1) The target is considered flat footed against the next attack made by the attacker.2) The target has left himself exposed and loses either all armor or shield bonuses to AC for the next attack made by the attacker. 3) The target is overextended and suffers a -4 penalty to his next attack against the attacker. If you are making the Feint:** You increase the DC by +2 if you have Bluff or Sleight of Hand as a class skill.** You increase the DC by +2 if you have the Combat Expertise feat. ** You increase the DC by +3 if you have the Improved Feint feat. ** You increase the DC by +2 if you have a higher BAB than the target.If you are resisting the Feint, you can apply the following modifiers to your saving throw:** You gain a +2 bonus to the save if you have Sense Motive or Concentration as a class skill. ** You gain a +2 bonus to the save if you have the Combat Expertise feat.  ** You gain a +3 bonus to the save if you have the Improved Feint feat.** You gain a +2 bonus to the save if you have a higher BAB than the person trying to Feint you.I came up with a few other optional modifiers, but dropped them in favor of keeping this simple. Three of the same modifiers provide up to the same bonuses for either making or resisting the feint, yet none of them separately or together are completely overpowering. And the fourth modifier (highest BAB) tips the favor (or mitigates some of the other's advantages) to the most combat trained.In line with this optional use of Feint, I would adjust the Improved Feint feat as follows:Improved FeintPrerequisites: NoneBenefit: You gain a +3 bonus to make or resist Feint attempts. In addition, you can take a Full Round action to attempt a Feint and attack even if you cannot yet make multiple attacks with a Full Round attack action. If your BAB would allow you to make more than two attacks on a full attack action, when performing a Feint as a Full Round attack action, you can make a second attack at your lowest BAB bonus.</blockquote>

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