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Fixing the fighter (I know...)
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<blockquote data-quote="Salthorae" data-source="post: 7828155" data-attributes="member: 1095"><p>I used the same parameters I always do (and treantmonk does) in calculating practical expected damage. The only parameters I "changed" were what you said at the start, "no combat feats", which to me also means not using ASI for boosting your stats. If you're going to limit the fighter to that, you need to also limit the Wizard to that as well.</p><p></p><p>Standard to hit ratios, and standard chance to fail their saves. Factoring in Arcane Recovery is moot if you're assuming continuous 20 round combat. If it's 20 rounds of combat over a day that is different, but that isn't the impression I got from your post. Even if you factor the most efficient Arcane Recover option for this scenario (2x 3rd level spells), that only puts the Wizard's expected damage up to 400.95. That is STILL 21 points short of the Champion (most boring/vanilla option) over the 20 rounds.</p><p></p><p>I did factor in Action Surge, you obviously didn't actually read my post.</p><p></p><p>My final conclusion in the scenario YOU posited, single target damage, is that the Fighter does more damage than a wizard over the same duration without combat feats taken or ASI spent on boositng stats.</p><p></p><p>In a burst situation, it <strong>FEELs </strong>like the wizard does more damage, but over an adventuring day, the fighter is actually dealing more single target damage than the wizard given the parameters that you set in your example.</p><p></p><p>So in fact, my point was that <strong>I DON"T AGREE</strong> with your premise. The fighter is good at their job already as the math proves regardless of what we <strong>FEEL</strong> and only gets better if you optimize them.</p><p></p><p>You said to "do the math": </p><p></p><p></p><p>I did the math and it doesn't support your position. </p><p></p><p>Before someone brings up Scorching Ray. I did the math on that too, even with Arcane Recovery it's objectively worse than fireball. It maxes out at 344.825 expected damage over 20 rounds with AR and firebolt rounding out the balance of 20 rounds. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Even if they did the same amount of damage (they don't), how would that "objectively prove" the fighter is worse than the wizard. It would "objectively prove" that the most vanilla fighter is the same at combat for single target damage over 20 rounds as a Wizard who burned all of their 3rd, 4th, 5th, & 6th (including Arcane Recovered ones) on Fireball spells. Not that they're worse at it. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is: </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fighter (champion) = newbie-friendly combat class (melee or ranged). </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Warlock (pretty much any patron,, Tome Boon) = newbie-friendly spellcasting class. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Rogue (Thief) = newbie-friendly skill monkey</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Salthorae, post: 7828155, member: 1095"] I used the same parameters I always do (and treantmonk does) in calculating practical expected damage. The only parameters I "changed" were what you said at the start, "no combat feats", which to me also means not using ASI for boosting your stats. If you're going to limit the fighter to that, you need to also limit the Wizard to that as well. Standard to hit ratios, and standard chance to fail their saves. Factoring in Arcane Recovery is moot if you're assuming continuous 20 round combat. If it's 20 rounds of combat over a day that is different, but that isn't the impression I got from your post. Even if you factor the most efficient Arcane Recover option for this scenario (2x 3rd level spells), that only puts the Wizard's expected damage up to 400.95. That is STILL 21 points short of the Champion (most boring/vanilla option) over the 20 rounds. I did factor in Action Surge, you obviously didn't actually read my post. My final conclusion in the scenario YOU posited, single target damage, is that the Fighter does more damage than a wizard over the same duration without combat feats taken or ASI spent on boositng stats. In a burst situation, it [B]FEELs [/B]like the wizard does more damage, but over an adventuring day, the fighter is actually dealing more single target damage than the wizard given the parameters that you set in your example. So in fact, my point was that [B]I DON"T AGREE[/B] with your premise. The fighter is good at their job already as the math proves regardless of what we [B]FEEL[/B] and only gets better if you optimize them. You said to "do the math": I did the math and it doesn't support your position. Before someone brings up Scorching Ray. I did the math on that too, even with Arcane Recovery it's objectively worse than fireball. It maxes out at 344.825 expected damage over 20 rounds with AR and firebolt rounding out the balance of 20 rounds. Even if they did the same amount of damage (they don't), how would that "objectively prove" the fighter is worse than the wizard. It would "objectively prove" that the most vanilla fighter is the same at combat for single target damage over 20 rounds as a Wizard who burned all of their 3rd, 4th, 5th, & 6th (including Arcane Recovered ones) on Fireball spells. Not that they're worse at it. There is: [LIST] [*]Fighter (champion) = newbie-friendly combat class (melee or ranged). [*]Warlock (pretty much any patron,, Tome Boon) = newbie-friendly spellcasting class. [*]Rogue (Thief) = newbie-friendly skill monkey [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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