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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 7828278" data-attributes="member: 6795602">Many of your assumptions about damage in the post were terrible: a few examples:1.  Assuming I was referencing a single 20 round combat as opposed to an adventuring day.2.  Assuming the Wizard didn't have +Int from ASI's when mine did.etc.The whole point of my post was to establish that fighter's needed to use some ASI's to match the wizard in combat - so it was important that the fighter not use any ASI's on combat until that was established, while the wizard is free to use them because maxing out INT is a typical wizard thing that helps both in combat and out of combat.Then you are looking for me to be an unfair, biased and partisan idiot when I am not - please don't be that way.Use the same chance to hit and chance to fail rates I did.  There's nothing about treantmonk's assumptions that are any better than mine.Then why did you complain about me factoring in arcane recovery?  Both are short rest abilities afterall...You listed the fighter doing more over 20 rounds.  But then at the end you said that wizards do more damage because the timespan we should be looking at is shorter than 20 rounds - a point I agree with - and one that when accounted for puts the wizard at doing more damage than the fighter, just as you rightfully noted.Oh, I've not even talked about the benefits of damage now being greater than damage later - or the benefits of multi target capabilities - or the benefits of control spells.Sounds like you do.  Wizards over some reasonable number of rounds of combat per day (under 20 rounds) do more single target damage than fighters - that's something you agreed with.Yea, that's why I don't bring up scorching ray.If the wizard can do the same amount of single target damage, but also can control and can do strong multi target damage then objectively he is better at combat.  More options than in lieu of straight damage means that if the wizard isn't doing less damage that he will be better at combat - as he can pick the option that best helps in the given situation.Maybe you are missing the point that I am making - the champion fighter needs at least some ASI's to go toward combat to actually be better at combat than a wizard.  Once that's acknowledged then we can have a meaningful discussion about how many ASI's he needs to go toward combat to be considered the wizards equal - which then tells us how many ASI's he can spend on out of combat stuff.  Of course the ultimate point of this exercise is that to balance the champion fighter with the wizard in combat pushes back the out of combat stuff to even higher levels - deligitmizing out of combat feats as a meaningful counter point to fighter's having sufficient out of combat options.</blockquote>

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