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Fixing the fighter (I know...)
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<blockquote data-quote="Salthorae" data-source="post: 7828980" data-attributes="member: 1095"><p>Great point, a 20 Str... anyone can jump 10' from limb to limb without any check at all. Seems like you could do tree running with that as long as the terrain was right and the DM was on board with it. Maybe require an acrobatics check every now and again for some "balance" (<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />)?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hey now, leave Ron bashing for another thread!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, one of the things that hit me about Hussar's post and the responses... myths are MYTHIC. Did someone in a story drink an ocean? I seriously doubt that the "origin" of that myth has anything to do with really drinking an ocean. I.e. even if it were generated from some real "event", it grows with each telling until the character is drinking an ocean. </p><p></p><p>I think it could be a fun RP to have an incident from early in the PC's career coming back later being told by a random bard/minstrel in a random city, but WAY exaggerated. </p><p></p><p>Maybe the PC fighter was a skilled/experienced siege engineer or something before he began adventuring and figured out a way to divert a river that constantly flooded an area or a town to save the town from the next floods. Then when the bards got ahold of it and by the time the PC's are hearing about it 10 levels later, the story has PC Fighter man gouging the ground in large swaths with the power of his might and sword. Or creating new cracks/fissures/channels with a blow from his maul. Then standing in front of the raging flood and forcing the waters down the new channels by the strength of his arms....</p><p></p><p>THAT is how heroes become MYTHIC IMO. Not by actually drinking an ocean. </p><p></p><p>There are some things that they can reasonably accomplish in the ruleset. Killing a legendary beast? Surviving mythic battles? All well within reason. </p><p></p><p>Drinking a sea or changing the course of a sun or something to do with affecting nature or the physical world on a large scale permanently (which is what many myths deal with) should have some root origin, but probably aren't really doable for anyone or anything in the game short of Wish and should probable be way beyond the scope of any updates to the fighter/champion subclass <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I get that 7th is good, but it is still a "poor mans" Jack of all Trades (which also applies to init). Letting it apply to Death Saves might be a nice little bene that isn't out of line with the rest of the subclass. No one else gains any benefits there to my knowledge so that would be a nice little niche gain for the Champion.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, jumping is the one thing where I wish they were a little more explicit in the PHB, or even in the DMG about it. Athletics is supposed to apply to jump per the description, but we're never told how. </p><p></p><p>I have an overly complicated set of rules for jumping at my table that I've been looking to simplify for a bit. </p><p></p><p>I'm thinking about if a PC is proficient in Athletics (only) applying their Athletics modifier to their Str before any division to see what their base ability is and then letting them roll if they way to exceed that. DC to exceed it would have to vary by circumstances, which is the DM's call. "Are you jumping off a ledge and get that extra arc on your jump? Adding 5' is probably easy or very easy." </p><p></p><p>I'm think a set amount, can add your long jumps. An easy way would be to use standard high jump distance (3+Str) and add it to your base # if you make the DC which is set by circumstances. </p><p></p><p>In my proposal, someone proficient in Athletics with an 18 Str at level 5 would automatically set world records for standing long jump, and with an athletics check can exceed it by up to 3.5 feet if they beat the check DC. </p><p></p><p>I'm going to allow +5' (2.5' for standing) for long jumps if they don't want to land on their feet as well. That makes sense though it might cause them unintended problems sometimes. </p><p></p><p>For high jumps... a Str 20 character already is reaching the world record with 3+Str, not even counting any Athletics check. So I'm going to say +1/2 proficiency (round down) new base. If you make your check then you can add full proficiency. At 1st level that gives a 16 str, proficient PC, a base of 7', and 8' (world record) by beating the DC. So setting world records at 1st level and landing on your feet. </p><p></p><p>Expertise would tack on to all this accordingly to all this. </p><p></p><p>If you're faster than 30' (Wood Elf, Barbarian, Monk, Mobile) then possibly grant advantage on certain checks depending on circumstances (i.e. standing jumps don't get it). Monk probably doesn't need it because of Step of the Wind, but yeah. </p><p></p><p>I think that is a neat compact system. </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Jump = Str for running, 1/2 Str for standing, 3 + Str mod for high</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Prof./Expertise Athletics Jump = Str+Athletics, 1/2 for standing, 3 + Str + 1/2 Prof for high</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"maxing out" = beat DC set by DM based on circumstances from very easy to near impossible<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Success = Long: Str+Athletics+(3+Str), Standing = 1/2, High = 3+Str+Prof</li> </ul></li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Salthorae, post: 7828980, member: 1095"] Great point, a 20 Str... anyone can jump 10' from limb to limb without any check at all. Seems like you could do tree running with that as long as the terrain was right and the DM was on board with it. Maybe require an acrobatics check every now and again for some "balance" (;))? Hey now, leave Ron bashing for another thread! Well, one of the things that hit me about Hussar's post and the responses... myths are MYTHIC. Did someone in a story drink an ocean? I seriously doubt that the "origin" of that myth has anything to do with really drinking an ocean. I.e. even if it were generated from some real "event", it grows with each telling until the character is drinking an ocean. I think it could be a fun RP to have an incident from early in the PC's career coming back later being told by a random bard/minstrel in a random city, but WAY exaggerated. Maybe the PC fighter was a skilled/experienced siege engineer or something before he began adventuring and figured out a way to divert a river that constantly flooded an area or a town to save the town from the next floods. Then when the bards got ahold of it and by the time the PC's are hearing about it 10 levels later, the story has PC Fighter man gouging the ground in large swaths with the power of his might and sword. Or creating new cracks/fissures/channels with a blow from his maul. Then standing in front of the raging flood and forcing the waters down the new channels by the strength of his arms.... THAT is how heroes become MYTHIC IMO. Not by actually drinking an ocean. There are some things that they can reasonably accomplish in the ruleset. Killing a legendary beast? Surviving mythic battles? All well within reason. Drinking a sea or changing the course of a sun or something to do with affecting nature or the physical world on a large scale permanently (which is what many myths deal with) should have some root origin, but probably aren't really doable for anyone or anything in the game short of Wish and should probable be way beyond the scope of any updates to the fighter/champion subclass ;) I get that 7th is good, but it is still a "poor mans" Jack of all Trades (which also applies to init). Letting it apply to Death Saves might be a nice little bene that isn't out of line with the rest of the subclass. No one else gains any benefits there to my knowledge so that would be a nice little niche gain for the Champion. Yeah, jumping is the one thing where I wish they were a little more explicit in the PHB, or even in the DMG about it. Athletics is supposed to apply to jump per the description, but we're never told how. I have an overly complicated set of rules for jumping at my table that I've been looking to simplify for a bit. I'm thinking about if a PC is proficient in Athletics (only) applying their Athletics modifier to their Str before any division to see what their base ability is and then letting them roll if they way to exceed that. DC to exceed it would have to vary by circumstances, which is the DM's call. "Are you jumping off a ledge and get that extra arc on your jump? Adding 5' is probably easy or very easy." I'm think a set amount, can add your long jumps. An easy way would be to use standard high jump distance (3+Str) and add it to your base # if you make the DC which is set by circumstances. In my proposal, someone proficient in Athletics with an 18 Str at level 5 would automatically set world records for standing long jump, and with an athletics check can exceed it by up to 3.5 feet if they beat the check DC. I'm going to allow +5' (2.5' for standing) for long jumps if they don't want to land on their feet as well. That makes sense though it might cause them unintended problems sometimes. For high jumps... a Str 20 character already is reaching the world record with 3+Str, not even counting any Athletics check. So I'm going to say +1/2 proficiency (round down) new base. If you make your check then you can add full proficiency. At 1st level that gives a 16 str, proficient PC, a base of 7', and 8' (world record) by beating the DC. So setting world records at 1st level and landing on your feet. Expertise would tack on to all this accordingly to all this. If you're faster than 30' (Wood Elf, Barbarian, Monk, Mobile) then possibly grant advantage on certain checks depending on circumstances (i.e. standing jumps don't get it). Monk probably doesn't need it because of Step of the Wind, but yeah. I think that is a neat compact system. [LIST] [*]Jump = Str for running, 1/2 Str for standing, 3 + Str mod for high [*]Prof./Expertise Athletics Jump = Str+Athletics, 1/2 for standing, 3 + Str + 1/2 Prof for high [*]"maxing out" = beat DC set by DM based on circumstances from very easy to near impossible [LIST] [*]Success = Long: Str+Athletics+(3+Str), Standing = 1/2, High = 3+Str+Prof [/LIST] [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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