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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7841500" data-attributes="member: 996">They've generally been 'worse' by a variety of measures - Tier 5 in 3.5, for instance, needing magic item tables weighted to favor items of particular use to them in the classic game, lacking when it came time to do an interaction SC in 4e, and of course, the current issues in 5e.&nbsp; By other measures you could say they've been better, too.&nbsp; They have that d10 HD, for instance, only matched by Paladin and beaten by Barbarian.&nbsp; OK, they can use all weapons and armor.&nbsp; Which hasn't meant much since 3.0.&nbsp; They get 2 extra ASIs... starting at 6th.&nbsp; And a third attack, a 11th...&nbsp; OK, not a lotta hard mechanical examples. But, they can certainly be better at representing many tropes from genre.&nbsp;Maybe we should go into what we do mean by contributions outside of combat, since your fighters contribute plenty, you should be able to come up with 10 gripping examples, at least.I suspect something could be tied to class, but not strictly mechanical.&nbsp; If there's villagers you need to convince of something, for instance, and they're superstitious and suspicious of magic-using characters, then the (non-EK, not dripping with obvious magic items) fighter might be the only member of the party they're willing to listen too.&nbsp; But, sure, make that 10 examples where a Bard or Paladin or Rogue with the same background (and all but 1 of the same feats, if in use) wouldn't have been able to make the exact same contribution, mechanical or otherwise.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7841500, member: 996"] They've generally been 'worse' by a variety of measures - Tier 5 in 3.5, for instance, needing magic item tables weighted to favor items of particular use to them in the classic game, lacking when it came time to do an interaction SC in 4e, and of course, the current issues in 5e. By other measures you could say they've been better, too. They have that d10 HD, for instance, only matched by Paladin and beaten by Barbarian. OK, they can use all weapons and armor. Which hasn't meant much since 3.0. They get 2 extra ASIs... starting at 6th. And a third attack, a 11th... OK, not a lotta hard mechanical examples. But, they can certainly be better at representing many tropes from genre. Maybe we should go into what we do mean by contributions outside of combat, since your fighters contribute plenty, you should be able to come up with 10 gripping examples, at least. I suspect something could be tied to class, but not strictly mechanical. If there's villagers you need to convince of something, for instance, and they're superstitious and suspicious of magic-using characters, then the (non-EK, not dripping with obvious magic items) fighter might be the only member of the party they're willing to listen too. But, sure, make that 10 examples where a Bard or Paladin or Rogue with the same background (and all but 1 of the same feats, if in use) wouldn't have been able to make the exact same contribution, mechanical or otherwise. [/QUOTE]

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