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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7848491" data-attributes="member: 996">They provided a structure, it just really needed to be a much more dynamic structure when you played through it.&nbsp; There were any number of great skill challenges, but they almost always meant reaching beyond the skeleton, just, making the accumulation of success &amp; failures map to something concrete could do it.&nbsp; Turn it from a sub-system to a game-within-a-game.Yeah, that's just kinda wrong.&nbsp; But, hey, it may well have been a legit RP choice based on Background so no reflection of the Fighter, class, there.Oh, not out of T5, out of the game that made Tier ranking necessary.&nbsp; In other words, the 3e fighter was great - it was all the other classes, and the monsters, that were terrible!&nbsp; (Though the Sorcerer also had some design elegance and depth to it, in it's own way).That's what I mean about everyone contributing in combat.&nbsp; The Fighter(Champion/BM), Rogue(Thief/Assassin), and Barbarian (Berserker) all contribute mainly single-target DPR.&nbsp; Different flavors, the fighter is tanky, the rogue opportunistic, the barbarian hulks out, but all just DPR.&nbsp; The Warlock, Paladin (and EK &amp; AT &amp;c) and others do so, as well, even full casters can if they concentrate on using the right spells the right way, but they all also do other stuff in combat, they heal/buff/support significantly, they change up the battlefield, the out put multi-target/AE DPR, they de-buff the enemy, etc...So, like, yeah, I mentioned the Rogue and Cleric in the same breath as getting out of their protected niches and being better-rounded, but it's not like they're suddenly in the same Tier, either.Ironically (it was another one of those &quot;this would be great, in a better game&quot; things, only that time I had tons of variants trying to get to that better game), I really liked the CPH version of creating priesthoods and used that for the second half of a campaign (that had started in 1e, with a not entirely dissimilar case-by-case customization of clerics by deity) that ended up running from '85 to '95.&nbsp; Two of the PCs were CPH Priests, and did very well.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7848491, member: 996"] They provided a structure, it just really needed to be a much more [I]dynamic[/I] structure when you played through it. There were any number of great skill challenges, but they almost always meant reaching beyond the skeleton, just, making the accumulation of success & failures map to something concrete could do it. Turn it from a sub-system to a game-within-a-game. Yeah, that's just kinda wrong. But, hey, it may well have been a legit RP choice based on [I]Background[/I] so no reflection of the Fighter, class, there. Oh, not out of T5, out of the game that made Tier ranking necessary. In other words, the 3e fighter was great - it was all the other classes, and the monsters, that were terrible! (Though the Sorcerer also had some design elegance and depth to it, in it's own way). That's what I mean about everyone contributing in combat. The Fighter(Champion/BM), Rogue(Thief/Assassin), and Barbarian (Berserker) all contribute mainly single-target DPR. Different flavors, the fighter is tanky, the rogue opportunistic, the barbarian hulks out, but all just DPR. The Warlock, Paladin (and EK & AT &c) and others do so, as well, even full casters [I]can[/I] if they concentrate on using the right spells the right way, but they all also do other stuff in combat, they heal/buff/support significantly, they change up the battlefield, the out put multi-target/AE DPR, they de-buff the enemy, etc... So, like, yeah, I mentioned the Rogue and Cleric in the same breath as getting out of their protected niches and being better-rounded, but it's not like they're suddenly in the same Tier, either. Ironically (it was another one of those "this would be great, in a better game" things, only that time I had tons of variants trying to [I]get[/I] to that better game), I really liked the CPH version of creating priesthoods and used that for the second half of a campaign (that had started in 1e, with a not entirely dissimilar case-by-case customization of clerics by deity) that ended up running from '85 to '95. Two of the PCs were CPH Priests, and did very well. [/QUOTE]

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