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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6068760" data-attributes="member: 95493">Wow this thread didn't just grow legs, arms, a torso, but it graduated highschool. Wow.I think (since I am one) that people hated 4e not because they nerfed spells. But basically what they turned spells, magic, non-magic, and generally speak all mechanics, HP and the pretty much most aspects of the game into.Nerfing spells, specifically making them less powerful, isn't a problem.Bringing them IN LINE with every other class - a problem.Forcing everyone into the same power structure for 'balance sake' terrible idea.Increasing the fighter, and all non-casters, to be parallel and equal to casters muddied the concept of magic is special. Mostly because it wasn't anymore.Take a poll of 3.5/PF players that still play that, even the ones that exclusively play it and never tried (or did?, whichever is worse for the my example) 4e. Ask them if they find spells to be OP and needing of a nerf? I'd bet that ALMOST ALL would say they need a nerf. What they don't need is to be turned into (3.5) warlocks. Generally speaking 3.5 didn't like the warlock very much and so making all wizards into the warlock was a bad idea.Now, take another poll, and ask how many would want ALL classes to be as powerful as the wizard. Again, you are going to find almost all to say they don't. That is part of the point of being a wizard, having special magical powers. The point of being a mundane fighter is in some sense to be mundane. If fighters are now as magical as wizards (a necessity to explain them in 4e) then it becomes a problem.So, this problem you have laid out is false.The solution, as already tried by 4e, is not to increase everyone but is instead to decease the problem. Fix the problem, don't solve for a different one that didn't exist. (Yes I recognize that 3.5 fighters are weaker than they should be but by in large THEY are not the issue.)Arthur was the sidekick? Who knew. Because clearly Merlin was the one with the magic. All Arthur had going for him was a fancy sword (that he didn't make but was instead made by a caster). But somehow now that is a problem now?Some of US don't feel playing the fighter IS a second class PC. You are right on the "most from myth are fighters/rogues".As repeatedly suggested, here and elsewhere, the problem isn't raising non-casters it is reducing casters. There are dozens of ways to do this while keeping wizards strong but making them no longer impossible to kill.Premise 2: Fighter is mundane, check.Premise 1: Wizard is magic, check.Conclusion: Magic > mundane ... err.. sure, check.Is this the way it should be? Except for that final conclusion? Yes, probably.Correct. They aren't going to do anything against those things. For the record I'm going to come down in the highly resistant group as opposed to the purely immune but for this argument it is more or less the same.Have you ever seen the show Supernatural?I ask because the two main characters of the show (brothers) are mortal men.. who routinely kill things that are magical. They kill things that are highly resistant and/or immune to MANY forms of normal killing. How do they do this? Implements. Would a pure caster, a magical demon/god/angel/whatever, have an easier time killing these immune things? Absolutely. And yet, time and time again the brothers have shown they can handle things things just fine if they have the time, preparation, resources, or gumption to get it done. They don't need magic.Now, back to the quote.Can we have it both ways, with mundane "fighters" and magical (and largely immune) monsters? Absolutely. In this case the fighter is not merely a "hits things harder" (though they certainly do) nor more accurately (often getting headshots with their guns) but they are also highly resistant themselves (more HP ftw!). All of these things have been standard with (to my knowledge) every incarnation of the fighter. They don't however need supernatural powers to be effective.So, yes, you can have mundane means defeating supernatural forces. They just need a leg up. I don't see anyone arguing they shouldn't get it.. except you in this post.Right, so the solution here IS gear. The fighter needs to hit that incorporeal creature? Ghost touch weapons exist. They need to fight that balor, demon-bane weapons exist. They need to breath water? Water-breathing rings exist. Do you know what they don't need? ANY of these abilities built into their class. It has nothing to do with the aspects of hit things harder, more accurately, take more damage.Also, "these people crafting things" as you describe them are not going to be as good at hitting things, as innately. If I had the training I could build a fire extinguisher. I'm still going to send the firefighter into the burning building. If I am the lady of the lake I know that excalibur belongs to Arthur, I don't go out and fight with it myself.I don't know what you mean by "crazytown" exactly...But you are right, Michael Phelps ISN'T going to go fight and take down Zeus. Who is saying he is supposed to? If he DID have some demigod blood in him, a magical weapon, death knight training then fine these are feats FAR exceeding his natural talent to swim quickly.High level characters will have access to these things, low level characters don't need them (or haven't found them yet). What is the problem, other than you want Joe the <insert job here, I felt like..>Barber to go fight Zeus one-on-one with nothing to help him out. Or you want Bilbo to single-handedly go slay Smaug in his lair... bypassing that whole BATTLE thing with an army?What's wrong with that? If a rogue can be replaced by a charmed, dominated, animated, or summoned minion there is no problem - as long as he has the same set of skills. Is the problem here that the wizard can do these magical abilities and no one else? The wizard has too many options available to him. The wizard can do all these things. To me that seems like a problem with the wizard, not with the fighter. But perhaps I'm missing something...?Also, would it be a problem if these options (perhaps in the form of rituals) were available to anyone who took the time to learn the trick to getting a monster/minion to do their bidding? Or would you then be worried that all wizards were going to be replaced?Yes, and so far in 5e we have a similar problem. That is signfiicantly more of a problem relating to HP and damage scaling than it probably has to do with those kinds of disabling effects.As you said, "death is the ultimate status condition" and so long as it is easier or as easy (or quick?) to kill someone dead as it is so disable them in one fashion or another then that seems like the problem is solved.Again, seems like a problem with the wizard getting too many/too effective at disabling enemies than the fighter's overall damage - at least most of the time.</blockquote>

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