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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6069270" data-attributes="member: 87792">I believe that the best challenges for PCs are ones that push them outside their comfort zone.  But these challenges work for one reason and one reason alone.  They are rare.  The Beholder anti-magic ray rocks - it's an interesting and rare twist.  The undead and construct immunity to sneak attack is obnoxious as hell because it makes one of the rogue's main abilities useless for most of the adventure.  On the other hand the solution should never be "Bob can attack it; he has a +3 sword."  This just means Bob is doing what Bob does.And I think 4e got the immunities almost right.  Making them mostly very rare - and far more interesting than immunities are consequences.  For instance a Volcanic Dragon is not immune to fire - but hit it with fire and it produces even more thick black sulphurous fumes (I normally reskin it away from a dragon).  And you can push, slide, or knock over an earthquake dragon (much better monster than an earth elemental so I use them as such).  But knock over an earthquake dragon and the ground shakes, knocking over everyone standing too close.  Far more interesting than a simple "It doesn't work".Same way Fighter Mack learned to Whirlwind Attack, attacking everyone around him.  Are you going to argue against feats as well?Because that's a much more realistic approximation than "He can do it every single time".  It's not a perfect approximation, but what you do in combat is limited by the opportunities you can see (the Orient phase of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop" target="_blank">OODA loop</a>).  If you spend time woolgathering rather than simply using the opportunities you can see you take a sword in the gut.Yes, there are better approximations you can come up with than AEDU.  Giving each encounter power an activation number at the start of every turn (roll 1d6 per encounter power and you can use it on an roll of N+) the way 4e monsters do.  The 3.5 Crusader recharge mechanic.  But it's still massively better than "You can do all things all the time".  But the principle that you only have the opportunity to use your more complex moves and stunts infrequently is a sound one - and at the level of detail D&D provides, this recharge cycle has to be arbitrary.If he tries it when the enemies haven't lined up properly it's effectively going to be a basic attack.Because bullying someone backwards with your shield is a hell of a lot simpler than seeing an opportunity involving half a dozen enemies lining up just so.   What if Mack's fighter buddy Rachel wants to try a whirlwind attack?  Same situation.  Several solutions.<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Se can practice until it's instinctive and something she sees rather than needs to think about.  Thus retraining to get Sweeping Strike (or spending however many feats it is for Whirlwind Attack).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">She can try to force it in the middle of combat - either being a second too slow or not having much chance to get the alignment properly.  Either way she should be taking monstrous penalties.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">She can realise that 2 is a bad idea of the sort that gets you stabbed and concentrate on perfecting her own technique and seeing the opportunities she's best at.</li> </ol>This isn't rocket science.You are talking as if it's an either/or proposition.  It isn't.  It's a combination of a stroke of luck and the focussed training to take advantage of that luck in the split second you have to make a decision.  To quote Louis Pasteur "Chance favours the prepared mind." If all foes are standing in exactly their original place relevant to the fighter I want to know whether the fighter is fighting a row of statues or golems.  You're telling me they either did not move an inch after a sweeping blow or stepped back to exactly where they were.  The 3.X and 4e battlegrid represents five foot squares.  Every monster facing our fighter could have moved three feet and there would be no change on the battlegrid.Which means there's no reason to think that the situation will be exactly the same from round to round even if no one has moved out of their square - and given how chaotic melees are generally there's every reason to think it won't be.They don't.  Forced movement works on PCs just as it does on NPCs.  CAGI is just a selective effect that only attacks enemies - if the fighter were to turn on the party he could CAGI them happily.  Same way that Rain of Blood from the Invoker is divine magic that burns the Invoker's enemies and empowers their allies.  If the Invoker switched sides it would stop burning monsters and start burning PCs.Next question?It works on the PCs, RAW. This is in the text of the power.  Next question?</blockquote>

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