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<blockquote data-quote="B.T." data-source="post: 6069814" data-attributes="member: 84465">Stop shifting the goalposts.&nbsp; You're claiming that 4e has more abstractions but they're not actually that more abstract.&nbsp; Hit points and healing surges are more abstract than hit points without healing surges.&nbsp; Overnight healing, likewise, is a design decision, one that pushes hit pionts into the &quot;more abstract&quot; realm than they were before.&nbsp; Armor Class with Intelligence to AC is more abstract than Armor Class with only Dexterity to AC.&nbsp; Automatically knowing magic item properties without any explanation of why?&nbsp; It's so abstract and unexplained that I can only guess that the short rest involves the PCs experimenting with the item, familiarity with the world, Arcana / Religion checks, etc., but I don't know for sure.&nbsp; Monster roles--and the calculation of stats based on them--is abstract because monsters are created as they exist in the metagame rather than how the monsters exist in the world.&nbsp; In other editions of D&amp;D, a goblin skirmisher would be a goblin with a bow, whereas a goblin soldier would be a gobiln with armor and a shield.&nbsp; In 4e, the monster's attack and damage change not based on his weapon but based on his role.&nbsp; That is very much abstract.Oh, and encumbrance rules in 4e, too.&nbsp; Much more abstract.What I don't get is why you're so vehemently denying this.&nbsp; Sure, there were other abstractions in older editions of D&amp;D, but you're acting like my statement is a criticism of 4e.&nbsp; It's more of a neutral observation.&nbsp; Some people like abstraction.&nbsp; I generally don't, but some of the abstractions in 4e I like.&nbsp; For instance, I'm not much a fan of healing surges, but I think that 5e's HD provide a middle ground for limited, out-of-combat healing that I can get along with.No.&nbsp; I'd rather see fewer, more unique powers.&nbsp; A power that does 3[W] + Strength at first level and another that does 7[W] + Strength at level 29 is redundancy.&nbsp; Why not just give one power that does 3[W] + Strength that scales up to 7[W] + Strength?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="B.T., post: 6069814, member: 84465"] Stop shifting the goalposts. You're claiming that 4e has more abstractions but they're not actually that more abstract. Hit points and healing surges are more abstract than hit points without healing surges. Overnight healing, likewise, is a design decision, one that pushes hit pionts into the "more abstract" realm than they were before. Armor Class with Intelligence to AC is more abstract than Armor Class with only Dexterity to AC. Automatically knowing magic item properties without any explanation of why? It's so abstract and unexplained that I can only guess that the short rest involves the PCs experimenting with the item, familiarity with the world, Arcana / Religion checks, etc., but I don't know for sure. Monster roles--and the calculation of stats based on them--is abstract because monsters are created as they exist in the metagame rather than how the monsters exist in the world. In other editions of D&D, a goblin skirmisher would be a goblin with a bow, whereas a goblin soldier would be a gobiln with armor and a shield. In 4e, the monster's attack and damage change not based on his weapon but based on his role. That is very much abstract. Oh, and encumbrance rules in 4e, too. Much more abstract. What I don't get is why you're so vehemently denying this. Sure, there were other abstractions in older editions of D&D, but you're acting like my statement is a criticism of 4e. It's more of a neutral observation. Some people like abstraction. I generally don't, but some of the abstractions in 4e I like. For instance, I'm not much a fan of healing surges, but I think that 5e's HD provide a middle ground for limited, out-of-combat healing that I can get along with. No. I'd rather see fewer, more unique powers. A power that does 3[W] + Strength at first level and another that does 7[W] + Strength at level 29 is redundancy. Why not just give one power that does 3[W] + Strength that scales up to 7[W] + Strength? [/QUOTE]

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