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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6070198" data-attributes="member: 6696971">This organization of the approach isn't correct.&nbsp; You've got the means and the sought end inverted.&nbsp; Its:Sought End - Wizards deploy game-changing resources at a fiat type level of power (they don't have to barter or negotiate for the power and it is relatively codified).&nbsp; They not only don't have multiple rolls for most spells, several spells just flat out work without even a single roll required (or a roll against a defense that is so weak that it may as well be automatic).&nbsp; So, heavy fiat + math that favors the successful resolution of their heavy fiat.&nbsp; Given these things, how can fighters have an effect on the game on par with wizards?&nbsp; Means - One of the ways (perhaps the easiest and most consistent/assured) is to give them the same fiat abilities; replete with exploits that don't require additional rolls, don't sacrifice attack accuracy or&nbsp; damage, don't require a chain of feats to learn, and work whenever the&nbsp; player wants them to as long as the rules says he can use it.&nbsp;That is not the fault of the system.&nbsp; That is user discretion.&nbsp; My group almost never has a stagnant fight in the combats I put before them...there is never some boring script.&nbsp; We use L + 2 as default so virtually no combats are &quot;mop-up-duty.&quot;&nbsp; We have terrain, hazards in almost every single fight that can be interfaced with to make the fight more dynamic.&nbsp; Page 42 is used almost every combat at least once and there is absolutely no &quot;mother may I&quot; involved.&nbsp; Its always:PC: &quot;I'm near this boiling stewpot, hanging on the spit over the fire...I'm going to wrongfoot him into the fire with a level 7 limited use (level 7 encounter power equivalent).&quot;&nbsp; Me:&nbsp; &quot;Ok.&quot;&nbsp; Consult page 42:&nbsp; This Striker wants to use 7th level encounter power for a slide 2 and to have fire damage added on.&nbsp; That's an average control effect + an average ongoing damage of 5 so I'll use the Page 42 Medium Limited Use Damage Expression on the table.&nbsp; Attack is Weapon Dex vs Reflex.&nbsp; Hit = 3d10 + 5 fire damage, slide 2 into difficult terrain, ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends); 2 medium control effects.&nbsp; The rogue would be Weapon Dex vs Ref, do 3d8 + 12 and blind (1 powerful control effect) until end of next turn with the encounter power.&nbsp; Describe intent.&nbsp; Say yes.&nbsp; Quickly and easily adjudicate via p42 in about 10 seconds. Roll dice.&nbsp; Narrate results. Thematic, dynamic, balanced results with minimal handling time.&nbsp; Win.What you described bears no resemblance to my table.&nbsp; Not 4 years ago and certainly not now that we're all exceedingly proficient with the ruleset and our chemistry with it and each other.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6070198, member: 6696971"] This organization of the approach isn't correct. You've got the means and the sought end inverted. Its: [B][I]Sought End[/I][/B] - Wizards deploy game-changing resources at a fiat type level of power (they don't have to barter or negotiate for the power and it is relatively codified). They not only don't have multiple rolls for most spells, several spells just flat out work without even a single roll required (or a roll against a defense that is so weak that it may as well be automatic). So, heavy fiat + math that favors the successful resolution of their heavy fiat. Given these things, [COLOR=#ffa500][I]how can fighters have an effect on the game on par with wizards?[/I][/COLOR] [I][B]Means[/B][/I] - [I][COLOR=#ffa500]One of the ways (perhaps the easiest and most consistent/assured) is to give them the same fiat abilities; replete with exploits that don't require additional rolls, don't sacrifice attack accuracy or damage, don't require a chain of feats to learn, and work whenever the player wants them to as long as the rules says he can use it.[/COLOR][/I] That is not the fault of the system. That is user discretion. My group almost never has a stagnant fight in the combats I put before them...there is never some boring script. We use L + 2 as default so virtually no combats are "mop-up-duty." We have terrain, hazards in almost every single fight that can be interfaced with to make the fight more dynamic. Page 42 is used almost every combat at least once and there is absolutely no "mother may I" involved. Its always: PC: "I'm near this boiling stewpot, hanging on the spit over the fire...I'm going to wrongfoot him into the fire with a level 7 limited use (level 7 encounter power equivalent)." Me: "Ok." Consult page 42: This Striker wants to use 7th level encounter power for a slide 2 and to have fire damage added on. That's an average control effect + an average ongoing damage of 5 so I'll use the Page 42 Medium Limited Use Damage Expression on the table. Attack is Weapon Dex vs Reflex. Hit = 3d10 + 5 fire damage, slide 2 into difficult terrain, ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends); 2 medium control effects. The rogue would be Weapon Dex vs Ref, do 3d8 + 12 and blind (1 powerful control effect) until end of next turn with the encounter power. Describe intent. Say yes. Quickly and easily adjudicate via p42 in about 10 seconds. Roll dice. Narrate results. Thematic, dynamic, balanced results with minimal handling time. Win. What you described bears no resemblance to my table. Not 4 years ago and certainly not now that we're all exceedingly proficient with the ruleset and our chemistry with it and each other. [/QUOTE]

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