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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6070861" data-attributes="member: 87792">Only if you have utterly tedious fights with minimal tactics, no terrain worth speaking of, and extremely poor teamwork.  If you combine that combination no wonder you dislike 4e.If on the other hand the fighter has a range of challenging combats in interesting environments, a team that understands tactics, and a player that understands how to use the fighter then I thik your experience would have been very different. And in Chess you always have the same options at the start of the game.  Ergo all chess games are the same.If that 5th level fighter has any sort of interesting terrain, the best opening possible might very well be Tide of Iron - forced movement to push the monsters exactly where they don't want to go like down a pit or over a cliff or too near the furnace.  If it's damaging terrain then you might want Steel Serpent Strike to keep monsters in the damaging terrain - it comes only after you've forced the monsters where you want them.  Alternatively the right opening if you aren't going to use a daily is very often Cleave - killing a minion is very often worth much more than an extra 1[W] damage.  In fact you'll often be cleaving until late in the fight with that collection of powers if the DM uses minions unless you've a wizard who makes minions irrelevant.As for teamwork, there's the Combat Challenge.  And a smart rogue (or other class) mooning the bad guy to allow the fighter a free swing.  Provoking an opportunity attack to allow the fighter a free swing is often good play by a rogue.  I'm sorry you didn't see that done.Yup!  And with that selection, a lot of the time I wouldn't.  At least if the DM had enough sense to make the battlefield vaguely interesting rather than simply flat or to give me minions.  My wizard took things further - his encounter powers were all situational.  If they would take the enemy out of action he used them.  If not, his mainline attack spell was the At Will Freezing Burst (often covering the melee as the entire melee line was cold resistant).  Or holding off an entire column with Storm Pillar.  It was rare that he used both his encounter powers and not unknown that he used neither.  He was also the party MVP by a reasonable margin and retired for giving the DM too much of a headache.No wonder you don't like it.  That sounds like a sucky experience.  And one that I'm not sure whether to blame on the DM for giving you no opportunities with terrain (there were apparently minions) or you for missing tactics.  Or official modules like Keep on the Shadowfell for being crap.  Or all of the above.Yup.  The key to making 4e fights interesting is keep them wanting to move.  If everyone lines up in a shield wall it'll get tedious.  I've seen this happen.  One of the true keys to keeping 4e interesting is to put even vaguely interesting terrain on the field.  It doesn't have to be much.  A flight of stairs to push people off or down will do - but once you have any terrain people want to either stay out of or go into then the forced movement comes into play, Tide of Iron often becomes more useful than Steel Serpent Strike, and the game gets dynamic and interesting.  The other way to do it is when people go for flanking or deliberate provoking when they consider the odds in their favour.Bob the fighter knows he sometimes sees an opportunity to knock people over when they are off balance.  It sometimes happens in a fight and sometimes he's wrong about the opportunity.</blockquote>

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