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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6071657" data-attributes="member: 87792">Oof.&nbsp; Urg.&nbsp; But the only thing you need to change for 4e is to not make the dungeon a physical dungeon.&nbsp; Either replace it with a set piece battle or set your &quot;dungeon&quot; aboveground most of the time.And that just sounds horrible.Let me repeat that - I did a double take the first time. &quot;realistically proportioned dungeons.&quot;&nbsp; Dungeons aren't a realistic terrain feature in the first place.&nbsp; You know what 4e does handle well and does give plenty of space?&nbsp; Outside.&nbsp; The great outdoors.&nbsp; And if you want somewhere more threatening?&nbsp; We have the Feywild and the Shadowfell.This is reminding me of an old joke.Patient: &quot;Doctor, it hurts when I do this!&quot; Doctor: &quot;Stop doing that then!&quot;4e does not do well at dungeoncrawls.&nbsp; There are plenty of other things to do.&nbsp; And I very seldom find dungeon crawls fun at the best of times.&nbsp; (Somewhere like Caverns of Thracia is worthwhile for exploration - but that's hardly realistic either).Of course not.&nbsp; Take 4e out of the dungeon and put it outside.&nbsp; Who needs pit traps when you have rolling terrain, hillocks, scree, rivers, and ponds?&nbsp; Or if the PCs are on a road put a ditch beside it and the bridge is the obvious spot for the ambush.&nbsp; These aren't components of big set pieces any more than a camp fire makes for a big set piece.Having just <a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/mw" target="_blank">scanned the archive</a> I strongly and emphatically disagree.&nbsp; I think there are precisely two maps there that would have been worse (White Plume Mountain and the top level of Undermountain) and every single other map on the right scale would have been an improvement.They pulled the previous attempt at 4e for being terrible 10 months in to playtesting - and still released 4e on time.&nbsp; It was shorted by a year.&nbsp; And then there was the tragedy round Gleemax.&nbsp; Honestly?&nbsp; You didn't need those monsters there in the first place.In 4e there is no such thing as &quot;cannon fodder, quickly cleared away&quot;?&nbsp; Wait, what?&nbsp; You think minions are something other than cannon fodder?Agreed.&nbsp; The initial guidance for DMing skill challenges sucks. The only thing you need to change to get that adventure to work is the map.&nbsp; I'd rather use MV monsters but the MM1 standard monsters and minions at low level are generally serviceable (other than the Wraith and the Needlefang Drake Swarm).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6071657, member: 87792"] Oof. Urg. But the only thing you need to change for 4e is to not make the dungeon a physical dungeon. Either replace it with a set piece battle or set your "dungeon" aboveground most of the time. And that just sounds horrible. Let me repeat that - I did a double take the first time. [B] "realistically proportioned dungeons."[/B] Dungeons aren't a realistic terrain feature in the first place. You know what 4e does handle well and does give plenty of space? [I]Outside[/I]. The great outdoors. And if you want somewhere more threatening? We have the Feywild and the Shadowfell. This is reminding me of an old joke. Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" Doctor: "Stop doing that then!" 4e does not do well at dungeoncrawls. There are plenty of other things to do. And I very seldom find dungeon crawls fun at the best of times. (Somewhere like Caverns of Thracia is worthwhile for exploration - but that's hardly realistic either). Of course not. Take 4e out of the dungeon and put it outside. Who needs pit traps when you have rolling terrain, hillocks, scree, rivers, and ponds? Or if the PCs are on a road put a ditch beside it and the bridge is the obvious spot for the ambush. These aren't components of big set pieces any more than a camp fire makes for a big set piece. Having just [URL="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/mw"]scanned the archive[/URL] I strongly and emphatically disagree. I think there are precisely two maps there that would have been worse (White Plume Mountain and the top level of Undermountain) and every single other map on the right scale would have been an improvement. They pulled the previous attempt at 4e for being terrible 10 months in to playtesting - and still released 4e on time. It was shorted by a year. And then there was the tragedy round Gleemax. Honestly? You didn't need those monsters there in the first place. In 4e there is no such thing as "cannon fodder, quickly cleared away"? Wait, [I]what?[/I] You think minions are something other than cannon fodder? Agreed. The initial guidance for DMing skill challenges [I]sucks[/I]. The only thing you need to change to get that adventure to work is the map. I'd rather use MV monsters but the MM1 standard monsters and minions at low level are generally serviceable (other than the Wraith and the Needlefang Drake Swarm). [/QUOTE]

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