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<blockquote data-quote="Libramarian" data-source="post: 6072388" data-attributes="member: 6688858">The 4e DMG is anti-sandbox in general. What would have pissed a lot of people off less would be if the DMG had been able to articulate sandboxing vs. adventure path vs. scene-framing Nar and explain how 4e works with each thing.I know there is a reluctance to nail down different styles like this, lest we replace edition warfare with playstyle warfare (or just come across as weird and over-theoretical), but I think at this point it's necessary to be this clear, especially if you want to move D&amp;D in a new direction. You have to put in a bit more effort to explain what you're doing and why. You can't just imply that a traditional way of playing D&amp;D sucks now. This is bound to cause problems.Regarding dungeons: The dungeon as setting evolved codependently with the OD&amp;D/Basic/AD&amp;D mechanics and playstyle. I think the whole point of it is to be the best gamist sandbox environment it can be. If you're not running a gamist sandbox, then yeah I can understand why you wouldn't like dungeons very much. They're a pretty boring and dreary setting for scene-based fantasy adventure.Actually that's a bit of an exagerration; the natural emotional terrain for dungeoncrawling is horror/creepy/weird. If you're running a scene-based fantasy adventure and specifically want to do that, then I can see utilizing a dungeon environment for a while. But if you're not doing that at all, then yeah -- if you feel like the whole dungeon thing is vestigial, trust your instincts and dump it. That makes sense to me.As to whether or not it counts as D&amp;D if you dump the dungeoncrawl, for me we've already left behind what I want to call D&amp;D when we're not doing a gamist sandbox. The dungeon as setting is a secondary consequence.Gamist dungeon sandbox is my &quot;narrow&quot; definition of D&amp;D. It's what I kind of wish D&amp;D meant. But I accept the reality is that for most people D&amp;D means something much broader and vaguer, like &quot;violent fantasy story roleplay game thing&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Libramarian, post: 6072388, member: 6688858"] The 4e DMG is anti-sandbox in general. What would have pissed a lot of people off less would be if the DMG had been able to articulate sandboxing vs. adventure path vs. scene-framing Nar and explain how 4e works with each thing. I know there is a reluctance to nail down different styles like this, lest we replace edition warfare with playstyle warfare (or just come across as weird and over-theoretical), but I think at this point it's necessary to be this clear, especially if you want to move D&D in a new direction. You have to put in a bit more effort to explain what you're doing and why. You can't just imply that a traditional way of playing D&D sucks now. This is bound to cause problems. Regarding dungeons: The dungeon as setting evolved codependently with the OD&D/Basic/AD&D mechanics and playstyle. I think the whole point of it is to be the best gamist sandbox environment it can be. If you're not running a gamist sandbox, then yeah I can understand why you wouldn't like dungeons very much. They're a pretty boring and dreary setting for scene-based fantasy adventure. Actually that's a bit of an exagerration; the natural emotional terrain for dungeoncrawling is horror/creepy/weird. If you're running a scene-based fantasy adventure and specifically want to do that, then I can see utilizing a dungeon environment for a while. But if you're not doing that at all, then yeah -- if you feel like the whole dungeon thing is vestigial, trust your instincts and dump it. That makes sense to me. As to whether or not it counts as D&D if you dump the dungeoncrawl, for me we've already left behind what I want to call D&D when we're not doing a gamist sandbox. The dungeon as setting is a secondary consequence. Gamist dungeon sandbox is my "narrow" definition of D&D. It's what I kind of wish D&D meant. But I accept the reality is that for most people D&D means something much broader and vaguer, like "violent fantasy story roleplay game thing". [/QUOTE]

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