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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DamionW" data-source="post: 2678850" data-attributes="member: 18649">Well, a lot of this goes towards what I've been saying, that WotC is unable to decide what CHA means.  Sometimes it means "force of will," like with UMD and spontaneous casting.  Sometimes it means sociability, like with most CHA based skills (diplomacy, bluff) and with the CHA penalties to races.  Here's the quote from the Player's Handbook: (Emphasis mine.)To me, this laundry list of traits rolled under one stat seems unwieldly.  It precludes an effective, yet obnoxious and ugly sorcerer, or a born half-orc (as written) leader.  If you look at any race with a CHA penalty, all of the reasons that they give for the penalty have to do with how they're perceived by others in a social setting.  Take dwarves.  They're justification for having a CHA penalty is that they're "gruff and reserved."  What does that have to do with not having a forceful personality?  Most dwarves I imagine are very strong-willed and stick to their opinions.  Does the race as a whole having a -2 CHA mean that on average, humans should be able to come in and persuade dwarves enough to let humans rule them?  On average, the humans are more forceful and persuasive in their personality to get away with it.  But no, this is a case of the designers not having a clear intent of what they mean with CHA.As I see it, NO race, not dwarf, not half-orc, not troll should have a penalty to CHA unless they're timid and easily cowed.  At least then you could have a unified sense of what CHA means:  To be able to express your views and will and impress them upon other people/things.  To straddle the fence between CHA meaning you're a likeable, pretty person and it meaning you have the will to bend the world around you does no one any good.</blockquote>

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