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<blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8362972" data-attributes="member: 7030563">Meh.I am not a fan, especially if you allow mutliclassing (in which case dex can be dumped to 13 easily with no repurcussions) or feats (in which case your Rogue will be OP)#1.&nbsp; The first ability is too good when you consider the tavern brawler, grappler and fighter initiate feats.&nbsp; This would make a Rogue OP as a grappler.Experise in athletics, cunning action dash, tavern brawler and high strength are already extremely powerful in a Rogue grapple build, and when doing this you need to choose between taking the BA grapple or doing the SA damage on the first turn - either/or not both.&nbsp; With this you would be able to do both and then when you added grappler feat you would have advantage all the time as well while being able to drag your oponent around at full move with cunning action.Under the current rules with tavern brawler you have to give up SA damage on the turn you grapple to make everything else work and that is an acceptable opportunity cost.&nbsp; I think if you changed&nbsp; this so he could use dexterity with improvised weapons or unarmed strikes without being &quot;finesse&quot; it would be fine.I am not concerned at all about #2For #3 I find Rogues very flexible already, they have the most skills and with expertise they are the best skill guys in the game and a couple of the subclasses add more skills and you get more expertise later.&nbsp; You can easily give yourself 16 in Dex and either 16/14/10 in RP stats (I/W/Ch) or 14/14/12 or with a human 14/14/14.&nbsp; This is all while maintaining a 10 constitution.&nbsp;&nbsp; Any of these combinations and you will be good at damage while being gangbusters at skills. I don't think any other class really allows that flexibility.&nbsp; I am not sure what this change would afford that is not already there except for people that want to metagame.&nbsp;&nbsp; If you feel you want the off-stat weapon stuff for a particular play style then multiclass to artificer or warlock to get it.&nbsp; In this case you give up some SA damage to get it, which again is an acceptable trade IMO.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ECMO3, post: 8362972, member: 7030563"] Meh. I am not a fan, especially if you allow mutliclassing (in which case dex can be dumped to 13 easily with no repurcussions) or feats (in which case your Rogue will be OP) #1. The first ability is too good when you consider the tavern brawler, grappler and fighter initiate feats. This would make a Rogue OP as a grappler. Experise in athletics, cunning action dash, tavern brawler and high strength are already extremely powerful in a Rogue grapple build, and when doing this you need to choose between taking the BA grapple or doing the SA damage on the first turn - either/or not both. With this you would be able to do both and then when you added grappler feat you would have advantage all the time as well while being able to drag your oponent around at full move with cunning action. Under the current rules with tavern brawler you have to give up SA damage on the turn you grapple to make everything else work and that is an acceptable opportunity cost. I think if you changed this so he could use dexterity with improvised weapons or unarmed strikes without being "finesse" it would be fine. I am not concerned at all about #2 For #3 I find Rogues very flexible already, they have the most skills and with expertise they are the best skill guys in the game and a couple of the subclasses add more skills and you get more expertise later. You can easily give yourself 16 in Dex and either 16/14/10 in RP stats (I/W/Ch) or 14/14/12 or with a human 14/14/14. This is all while maintaining a 10 constitution. Any of these combinations and you will be good at damage while being gangbusters at skills. I don't think any other class really allows that flexibility. I am not sure what this change would afford that is not already there except for people that want to metagame. If you feel you want the off-stat weapon stuff for a particular play style then multiclass to artificer or warlock to get it. In this case you give up some SA damage to get it, which again is an acceptable trade IMO. [/QUOTE]

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