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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Fixing the terrible Weapon Master feat
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7588108" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>No harm no foul</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>DnD isn't a solo game, but it is a group game. And groups can be small. The game where I had a barbarian with this feat had a standard of three or four people in it. We are getting into the specific minutia here, but we had no rogues, no tanks except for me, and a veritable horde of multi-classed monstrosities. That 1d8+11 I could do with this feat and rage? It was the lowest damage in the party. The cleric was hitting for something like 5d8+5 at-will. So, especially in that instance I was being far from selfish, I was just trying to keep pace and fulfill my role. </p><p></p><p>Frontliner, great defense, decent but not OP offense. Stick in some enemies craw and let them choke on me while my party did the rest. </p><p></p><p>Also, I think "damage" is so easy to pull off that it is essentially a non-role. Being a tank and a damage dealer, or a sneaker and a damage dealer, is pretty much baked into the game anyways. And the type of people who care about you maybe dealing more damage than them are going to be doing way better than the guy who is playing a shield barbarian with a one-handed weapon. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm responding down the line, so I don't know if you go into more detail later, but a wizard taking booming blade is doing something really weird. They are going to have to have at least decent dex or str (likely dex) to be able to hit with the weapon, because booming blade is a weapon attack. Sure, it has a nice effect, if you are darting in and out of combat. Which is not a specialty of the wizard with it's low AC, low HP, and general focus on not being on the frontlines. </p><p></p><p>Not saying you can't do it, but you are jumping through a lot of hoops to do it, and it is about the worst possible place you can put your wizard. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think it is about DPR optimization though. I play things because they are cool, got a Fey Pact of the Chain right now, with an awesome backstory, whose combat potential is nowhere near where it could be (still decent because party of 3, I need to pull weight in combat, but very much built for non-combat roles). But when you build a "cool" concept, you pick the cool thing you want to focus on. And if you want to be a sword wielding warlock, there are options for that that do not take your feat. </p><p></p><p>And remember, this is a feat. Unless you are playing human you are getting this at 4th level (and you are either not playing a dwarf or an elf or want something they don't provide) which means you were probably doing something else for the first three levels. And if that something was eldritch blast, you see your attack you've been using, look at the new weapon, and it is plain that smaller dice are worse. It actually takes someone whose been around for a while to know it is an average of +/- 1, and even then it is hard to justify using a worse attack during combat (at least for me) </p><p></p><p>And, I look at that warlock, and I just don't get what value the sword has to the design space. You want to cast hold person with a low spell DC? You are just wasting actions if it is low enough (and trust me, that is a pain I've seen many, many players go through) and you get the same damage with a staff, especially since warlocks don't get shields by default. </p><p></p><p>So, you need a player who definitely wants magic swords, but doesn't want to play anything centered around getting magic swords, except for taking a feat partway through the campaign that only gives them the ability to wield swords worse than if they had just built for wielding swords from the beginning. </p><p></p><p>And, let us not forget, you can wield any weapon anyways. You just don't get your proficiency bonus to hit if you aren't proficient. So, it is a feat that only increases your accuracy to hit. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, sometimes people are jerks. Weapons matter so little in the grand scheme of things that I would have no problem if someone wanted to get a specific subset trained into them. I'd say more than likely your Story GM just didn't want the wizard "Suddenly Knowing" how to do something because of the feat, not really about the mechanical imbalance of allowing him to pick up a longsword and hit slightly more often. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why not magic initiate shillelagh and do the same as those longswords and axes with a club or a staff with the advantage of using Wisdom? (or play elf or dwarf) And you get some 1/day spells. </p><p></p><p>This is one of the few feats that I think deserves it's RAW reputation. There are just so very very very few concepts that benefit from it, and it is just an accuracy increase with those weapons. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, that is a RAW that I often forget and probably bears repeating. </p><p></p><p>Wizards can use greatswords from level 1. They just can't add proficiency to hit. If you want that magic sword, you can already use it. IF you like the imagery, you can already have it. The bonus of being proficient is accuracy when using the weapon. So Weapon Master at 4th level could accurately read "+2 to hit with four weapons of your choice you are not already proficient in"</p><p></p><p>Which is... really underwhelming.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7588108, member: 6801228"] No harm no foul DnD isn't a solo game, but it is a group game. And groups can be small. The game where I had a barbarian with this feat had a standard of three or four people in it. We are getting into the specific minutia here, but we had no rogues, no tanks except for me, and a veritable horde of multi-classed monstrosities. That 1d8+11 I could do with this feat and rage? It was the lowest damage in the party. The cleric was hitting for something like 5d8+5 at-will. So, especially in that instance I was being far from selfish, I was just trying to keep pace and fulfill my role. Frontliner, great defense, decent but not OP offense. Stick in some enemies craw and let them choke on me while my party did the rest. Also, I think "damage" is so easy to pull off that it is essentially a non-role. Being a tank and a damage dealer, or a sneaker and a damage dealer, is pretty much baked into the game anyways. And the type of people who care about you maybe dealing more damage than them are going to be doing way better than the guy who is playing a shield barbarian with a one-handed weapon. I'm responding down the line, so I don't know if you go into more detail later, but a wizard taking booming blade is doing something really weird. They are going to have to have at least decent dex or str (likely dex) to be able to hit with the weapon, because booming blade is a weapon attack. Sure, it has a nice effect, if you are darting in and out of combat. Which is not a specialty of the wizard with it's low AC, low HP, and general focus on not being on the frontlines. Not saying you can't do it, but you are jumping through a lot of hoops to do it, and it is about the worst possible place you can put your wizard. I don't think it is about DPR optimization though. I play things because they are cool, got a Fey Pact of the Chain right now, with an awesome backstory, whose combat potential is nowhere near where it could be (still decent because party of 3, I need to pull weight in combat, but very much built for non-combat roles). But when you build a "cool" concept, you pick the cool thing you want to focus on. And if you want to be a sword wielding warlock, there are options for that that do not take your feat. And remember, this is a feat. Unless you are playing human you are getting this at 4th level (and you are either not playing a dwarf or an elf or want something they don't provide) which means you were probably doing something else for the first three levels. And if that something was eldritch blast, you see your attack you've been using, look at the new weapon, and it is plain that smaller dice are worse. It actually takes someone whose been around for a while to know it is an average of +/- 1, and even then it is hard to justify using a worse attack during combat (at least for me) And, I look at that warlock, and I just don't get what value the sword has to the design space. You want to cast hold person with a low spell DC? You are just wasting actions if it is low enough (and trust me, that is a pain I've seen many, many players go through) and you get the same damage with a staff, especially since warlocks don't get shields by default. So, you need a player who definitely wants magic swords, but doesn't want to play anything centered around getting magic swords, except for taking a feat partway through the campaign that only gives them the ability to wield swords worse than if they had just built for wielding swords from the beginning. And, let us not forget, you can wield any weapon anyways. You just don't get your proficiency bonus to hit if you aren't proficient. So, it is a feat that only increases your accuracy to hit. Yeah, sometimes people are jerks. Weapons matter so little in the grand scheme of things that I would have no problem if someone wanted to get a specific subset trained into them. I'd say more than likely your Story GM just didn't want the wizard "Suddenly Knowing" how to do something because of the feat, not really about the mechanical imbalance of allowing him to pick up a longsword and hit slightly more often. Why not magic initiate shillelagh and do the same as those longswords and axes with a club or a staff with the advantage of using Wisdom? (or play elf or dwarf) And you get some 1/day spells. This is one of the few feats that I think deserves it's RAW reputation. There are just so very very very few concepts that benefit from it, and it is just an accuracy increase with those weapons. Actually, that is a RAW that I often forget and probably bears repeating. Wizards can use greatswords from level 1. They just can't add proficiency to hit. If you want that magic sword, you can already use it. IF you like the imagery, you can already have it. The bonus of being proficient is accuracy when using the weapon. So Weapon Master at 4th level could accurately read "+2 to hit with four weapons of your choice you are not already proficient in" Which is... really underwhelming. [/QUOTE]
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