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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Fixing the terrible Weapon Master feat
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7589882" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>I warn you, you play a dangerous game giving me openings to discuss my character build <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p>And yeah, he had Shield Master. It's why I went variant human, because being a knight (background) was so vital to my concept that I wanted my sword and shield combo to be the best I could make it by level 1. </p><p></p><p>Also, you seem under a misconception. My problem with Weapon Master has nothing to do with my Barbarian Knight and how I built him. I knew about the Dawnforged Homebrew that I used from another source (I think I was looking for Magic Items when I found the document), and my Knight is only showing the one time I used it myself (I had a Ranger who played in a game I DM'd use it as well).</p><p></p><p>I've had a problem with RAW Weapon Master from the beginning, and it has everything to do with how 99% of characters will never take the feat, because the benefits it grants are not worth a feat. Especially in light of the potential of just multi-classing or playing an Elf or Dwarf who get some of the martial weapons you keep mentioning. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, you seem to be missing a few major points here. Maybe a fuller description of my build will make some of it clear. </p><p></p><p>At level 1, I took shield master because of two reasons. One, I wanted to play a knight who was not a fighter or paladin and that is a very "knightly" feat. Two, in playing a barbarian I got advantage on dex saves. Adding my shield bonus to those saves and being able to reduce a successful save to 0 damage was awesome for a defensive build, plus I always loved the visual of the guy holding off dragon fire with his shield. </p><p></p><p>At Level 3, continuing my original plan, I took the Ancestral Guardians path. This not only (eventually) provided me with a reaction shield to reduce damage coming into my allies, but also meant that enemies I struck had disadvantage to hit said allies and only did half damage to them. </p><p></p><p>At level 4, I took the Dawnforged Weaponmaster. Because, I was already a pretty dang good tank. I had a huge pool of hp, I had good abilities to protect my allies, but I was dealing the least amount of damage out of everyone. As a barbarian, who is traditionally on the higher end of damage. Also, by dealing low damage, I was a much lesser threat to the enemies. This would only get worse with time, so I invested in increasing my damage with a homebrew feat I knew of and my DM approved. </p><p></p><p>LEvel 8, I took Tenacious, which is also Dawnforged and is a combination of Tough and Durable, making me even more of a living punching bag. </p><p></p><p>Level 12 I took a feat from Tal'dorie called Mending affinity, which increased all of my healing by my proficiency, making it easier to refill my massive hit point pool and keep me on my feet. </p><p></p><p></p><p>None of this has to do with me looking at the RAW Weapon Master feat and feeling it was inadequate. The only reason I took the DF Feat was because I was looking to increase my damage, because it was lower than I liked. I made that choice to have a lower damage ceiling, but that doesn't mean that I had to ignore an ability that could mitigate that. </p><p></p><p>Pyro-blasters take elemental adept to increase their damage by ignoring fire resistance. </p><p>Fighters take resilient Wisdom to shore up their defenses against magic. </p><p>I took a feat to increase my damage because it was too low for a front-liner trying to hold the enemies attention. </p><p></p><p>Also, an ASI would not do the same thing as this feat, since the DF increase the damage by proficiency, meaning that you need 2 ASI's to matching taking this feat at level 4, and it increases it by a max of +6, which is more than any character can get via ASI's. </p><p></p><p>Also, despite me going through this. I never once said you had to like this homebrew feat. You don't like a damage increase? Fine. Don't use it, it was just a suggestion. All I have been trying to do is show that it isn't incredibly overpowered. As you mention, damage is the easiest thing for a DM to account for in a fight. You want to come up with a better homebrew, then that's awesome, I'd love to talk about it. But the RAW feat is bad, and my opinion on that has nothing to do with my previous character or the homebrew I replaced the feat with. That is a separate discussion. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>I kind of got lost in the wall of text, but here are some thoughts, ignoring your misunderstanding of the homebrew feat, since I covered that above. </p><p></p><p>Why is this wizard using a shortsword? </p><p></p><p>If they are looking for a finesse weapon, they have daggers. The average difference in damage mathematically is +/-1. By taking the weapon master feat, all you are doing is either getting flavor or getting a +1 to damage. The exact thing you don't want from the feat. </p><p></p><p>You're meandering example of why a wizard would use booming blade as a reaction to hit monsters running past them, or how booming blade is a useful melee attack if they are ambushed from behind has nothing to do with them using a shortsword. </p><p></p><p>Booming blade works with daggers, it works with staves, if this is just talking about using the cantrip in emergencies... well then it addresses nothing about the feat itself. </p><p></p><p>Your entire premise is "But what if I want to play a wizard with a sword, but I don't want to play an Elf?" </p><p></p><p>That is a terrible defense of this feat. You can find alternative ways to get weapons proficiencies. If it is only about flavor then we can find other ways to get there. But, mechanically, it is a bad feat. It offers nothing to the vast majority of characters and players. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ummm... they already can? The homebrew feat I mentioned has been published for almost two years or more. </p><p></p><p>Yes, if a DM allows it in their game they must account for it. It is homebrew, you always have to account for adding homebrew into your game. </p><p></p><p>My only point is that +6 damage, while it feels good to the player, isn't wrecking encounters and ruining the game. I played it, I took the feat not to do the most damage ever, though I know I could, but because it fit my concept and let me stay in line with my party. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Umm... roleplaying the gaining of a weapon proficiency can be done too? Training montages are a thing, and watching a warrior learning how to use their weapon can be an engaging story. Heck, I've read more than one book where the main character spends a good quarter or more of the story being taught ho to fight. </p><p></p><p>I get some DM's don't like houserules. That sucks. But, it doesn't change anything I'm saying. The original feat is still a bad feat, whether DM's use houserules or not. Whether it is the only way to make a human gandalf the grey wielding a longsword or not. It is still a bad feat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7589882, member: 6801228"] I warn you, you play a dangerous game giving me openings to discuss my character build :P And yeah, he had Shield Master. It's why I went variant human, because being a knight (background) was so vital to my concept that I wanted my sword and shield combo to be the best I could make it by level 1. Also, you seem under a misconception. My problem with Weapon Master has nothing to do with my Barbarian Knight and how I built him. I knew about the Dawnforged Homebrew that I used from another source (I think I was looking for Magic Items when I found the document), and my Knight is only showing the one time I used it myself (I had a Ranger who played in a game I DM'd use it as well). I've had a problem with RAW Weapon Master from the beginning, and it has everything to do with how 99% of characters will never take the feat, because the benefits it grants are not worth a feat. Especially in light of the potential of just multi-classing or playing an Elf or Dwarf who get some of the martial weapons you keep mentioning. Okay, you seem to be missing a few major points here. Maybe a fuller description of my build will make some of it clear. At level 1, I took shield master because of two reasons. One, I wanted to play a knight who was not a fighter or paladin and that is a very "knightly" feat. Two, in playing a barbarian I got advantage on dex saves. Adding my shield bonus to those saves and being able to reduce a successful save to 0 damage was awesome for a defensive build, plus I always loved the visual of the guy holding off dragon fire with his shield. At Level 3, continuing my original plan, I took the Ancestral Guardians path. This not only (eventually) provided me with a reaction shield to reduce damage coming into my allies, but also meant that enemies I struck had disadvantage to hit said allies and only did half damage to them. At level 4, I took the Dawnforged Weaponmaster. Because, I was already a pretty dang good tank. I had a huge pool of hp, I had good abilities to protect my allies, but I was dealing the least amount of damage out of everyone. As a barbarian, who is traditionally on the higher end of damage. Also, by dealing low damage, I was a much lesser threat to the enemies. This would only get worse with time, so I invested in increasing my damage with a homebrew feat I knew of and my DM approved. LEvel 8, I took Tenacious, which is also Dawnforged and is a combination of Tough and Durable, making me even more of a living punching bag. Level 12 I took a feat from Tal'dorie called Mending affinity, which increased all of my healing by my proficiency, making it easier to refill my massive hit point pool and keep me on my feet. None of this has to do with me looking at the RAW Weapon Master feat and feeling it was inadequate. The only reason I took the DF Feat was because I was looking to increase my damage, because it was lower than I liked. I made that choice to have a lower damage ceiling, but that doesn't mean that I had to ignore an ability that could mitigate that. Pyro-blasters take elemental adept to increase their damage by ignoring fire resistance. Fighters take resilient Wisdom to shore up their defenses against magic. I took a feat to increase my damage because it was too low for a front-liner trying to hold the enemies attention. Also, an ASI would not do the same thing as this feat, since the DF increase the damage by proficiency, meaning that you need 2 ASI's to matching taking this feat at level 4, and it increases it by a max of +6, which is more than any character can get via ASI's. Also, despite me going through this. I never once said you had to like this homebrew feat. You don't like a damage increase? Fine. Don't use it, it was just a suggestion. All I have been trying to do is show that it isn't incredibly overpowered. As you mention, damage is the easiest thing for a DM to account for in a fight. You want to come up with a better homebrew, then that's awesome, I'd love to talk about it. But the RAW feat is bad, and my opinion on that has nothing to do with my previous character or the homebrew I replaced the feat with. That is a separate discussion. I kind of got lost in the wall of text, but here are some thoughts, ignoring your misunderstanding of the homebrew feat, since I covered that above. Why is this wizard using a shortsword? If they are looking for a finesse weapon, they have daggers. The average difference in damage mathematically is +/-1. By taking the weapon master feat, all you are doing is either getting flavor or getting a +1 to damage. The exact thing you don't want from the feat. You're meandering example of why a wizard would use booming blade as a reaction to hit monsters running past them, or how booming blade is a useful melee attack if they are ambushed from behind has nothing to do with them using a shortsword. Booming blade works with daggers, it works with staves, if this is just talking about using the cantrip in emergencies... well then it addresses nothing about the feat itself. Your entire premise is "But what if I want to play a wizard with a sword, but I don't want to play an Elf?" That is a terrible defense of this feat. You can find alternative ways to get weapons proficiencies. If it is only about flavor then we can find other ways to get there. But, mechanically, it is a bad feat. It offers nothing to the vast majority of characters and players. Ummm... they already can? The homebrew feat I mentioned has been published for almost two years or more. Yes, if a DM allows it in their game they must account for it. It is homebrew, you always have to account for adding homebrew into your game. My only point is that +6 damage, while it feels good to the player, isn't wrecking encounters and ruining the game. I played it, I took the feat not to do the most damage ever, though I know I could, but because it fit my concept and let me stay in line with my party. Umm... roleplaying the gaining of a weapon proficiency can be done too? Training montages are a thing, and watching a warrior learning how to use their weapon can be an engaging story. Heck, I've read more than one book where the main character spends a good quarter or more of the story being taught ho to fight. I get some DM's don't like houserules. That sucks. But, it doesn't change anything I'm saying. The original feat is still a bad feat, whether DM's use houserules or not. Whether it is the only way to make a human gandalf the grey wielding a longsword or not. It is still a bad feat. [/QUOTE]
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