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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawken" data-source="post: 4818072" data-attributes="member: 23619">Most of the solutions here only contribute to the brokenness of 3.x skills in comparing a skill check to something not a skill check (level check, BAB, etc.).  I have two solutions that avoid that issue without changing the overall rules of the Tumble skill.#1: Opposed CheckMake Tumble, when used to move through threatened/occupied spaces, an opposed check. The tumbler makes his check and every person threatening/occupying a space he moves through makes a check. The tumbler stops at whoever, if anyone, beats his check. But what skill can you use to oppose the check that would be fair to all classes?The only skill that is a class skill for all classes is Craft, the only other one that comes close is Profession. Neither would be appropriate. So, we select two skills that are class skills for all classes and appropriate to use to challenge a Tumble check. I say Concentration and Jump, every class has either of these as class skills. Concentration allows the person to concentrate on the tumbler, observing their movements and most likely path of movement. A successful check there indicates the character knows where the tumbler is moving and intercepts either placing himself or a weapon in the path of the tumbler to stop their movement. Jump would work along the same lines in that they simply jump in the way of the tumbler and stop him thusly. This would make tumbling a challenge, not a given the way it is now. Tumblers are still likely to succeed but its no longer an automatic success. Static DCs for skills that increase are poorly devised. This solves that problem.Solution #2: Modify the Skill CheckThe other solution is to give more modifiers to the static tumble DCs than just the +1-2 for terrain or number of people tumbling past/through. What modifiers:** The initiative modifiers of the people being tumbled past (Dex, plus improved initiative and any other modifiers to the person's initiative score). ** Allow the Stability racial ability for dwarves to increase the DC since Dwarves are basically living breathing brick walls.** Size: -4 to the DC for every size the target is larger than the tumbler. No modifier for moving past equal or smaller sized targets. And moving through smaller targets would be an overrun or trample and not a tumble check.** Haste: Add the +4 AC bonus for Hasted targets to the DC of the check. Haste increases their reaction toward incoming attacks, it should also increase their reaction time toward incoming tumblers.As with my suggestion for the opposed check, this option no longer makes tumbling a given. It is modified based on the ability of the target to react to the tumbler in time to interrupt the tumbling or to just get in their way and stop them that way. For either suggestion, I'd allow a tumbler with Mobility to add that +4 bonus to his tumble check since mobility is essentially trying to move around/past/through targets without getting hit. Also, the tumbler is still likely to succeed at his check, but that success is no longer guaranteed and the tumbler that underestimates his opponent is going to find his butt on the ground. These options should also add a degree of excitement and tension to what has otherwise turned into an automatic, dreaded/boring/ho-hum action.My only problem with the other suggestions is with what Streamofthesky writes. His reasoning is basically the cheesy quote from old movies that "only a ninja can stop a ninja"--except in this case, only a tumbler can stop a tumbler. That's not even close to being true. And even the ninja thing is proven false by an episode of the Deadliest Warrior that had a Trojan warrior kicking a ninja's ass!His suggestion that two classes (Knight and Crusader) are able to stop tumblers is puzzling? Why only them? Why not a Fighter (the epitome of combat training) or even a Ranger (the D&D version of Special Forces)? Why not a Barbarian? I could see Arnold--I mean Conan, punching someone or chopping in half someone trying to flip past him! This only makes a couple of classes more powerful and doesn't resolve the issue which lies with the Tumble skill itself.His two houserules are also poorly devised. First, they rely on his "only a ninja..." premise in that they require other tumblers to use. Second, they further break the tumble skill by causing the tumbler to provoke an AoO that allows a counter-tumble. The purpose of a tumble check is to avoid AoOs. That's why its there. Now making them draw AoOs doesn't balance the skill but only breaks it more.He further argues that the better a tumbler, the better they are at stopping one. Again, false. Tumblers learn to tumble, they don't learn to stop other tumblers. All anyone needs to do to stop a tumbler is get in their way or put something in their way that throws off their balance or momentum. Anyone can do that. Kids are masters at getting underfoot even when someone is just walking! So, if a child can get in the way WITHOUT training, so could a wizard or paladin or anyone else! I don't agree with him that monks rely on tumbling, but maybe that's just the games he's been in, not me. I've had dozens of players use tumbling, but I've never had anyone rely on it. If you don't even want to change the rules but still want to stop a tumbler, use a Ready action. Ready an attack or spell against anyone who starts tumbling toward or by you. They start to tumble, they still get zinged no matter the result of their check! I'm not arguing for BAB vs. Tumble, but I don't believe Streamofthesky hasn't heard or thought of how combat skill could stop a tumbler. Does he really believe that putting a sword blade in someone's face, a tower shield in front of them (or upside their head if they try to move past you), or just sitting down on someone when they dive between your legs isn't going to stop a tumbler? You don't even need to shield bash someone doing a cartwheel, a light shove will have them eating dirt! All you have to do is watch just about any MMA fight. Watch someone try to get by a guy good at jiujutsu, that person isn't getting out of his roll or flip without a broken arm or two and not before screaming like a girl! Actually, bad example, MMA fighters are not stupid enough to try something like that against an opponent. So, yeah, martial prowess has tons to do with being able to stop a tumbler. Its just that the current rules for the Tumble skill do not reflect that. Hence, the OPs reason for starting this thread.</blockquote>

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