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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 4819353" data-attributes="member: 35909">Forgery is specifically a skill that opposes itself.  If you're going to have Tumble oppose itself, it's a fair comparison.  All those other pairs of skills feature one that is "acting" and one that is "reacting."  You react to the act of Bluffing with a Sense Motive check.  You react to silent movement with a listen check.  And so on.  If you want to follow that model, there would be a designated "anti-tumble" skill, just as it is for all the pairs you've named.  Forgery and Diplomacy can only be beaten by Forgery and Diplomacy, respectively.  There is a rules precedence for a skill only being defeated by itself.  Not just the ninja thing.  I also houseruled Intimidate can be used to defend against Intimidate (when used to demoralize), because it seemed appropriate, to go off-topic a bit.  On topic, Tome of Battle made Intimidate partially self-opposed with the Duel of Wills.No, I mean BAB comes free with a level up.  There is no choosing ot increase your BAB instead of increasing a saving throw or whatever.  Some classes get BAB slower, but they still get it for free as part of leveling up.   The disparity between poor and full BAB is like the rate of cross class skill ranks versus class skill ranks -- 1/2.  You still don't even get cross class ranks for free at level up (that's more like 4E), you have to purchase them.  And you can't just dump all your skill points in one skill, it is limited by level just as BAB is.  The difference is, you have to spend a resource to increase skills, BAB you simply gain.But you agree it should be a skill check, so I don't even know why we're still talking about BAB. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Well, yes, that makes a big difference.  I don't even mind if you wanted to make houserules to make tumbling through a person's occupied square harder.  I think DC 25 is already really hard for a good while (anything above DC 20 is considered to be too difficult for the average person to ever accomplish, and nearly impossible for an average person trained in the skill), but whatever.  I'm more concerned with keeping tumbling through threatened areas relatively safe, because it's my opinion that certain classes and archetypes rely on it.  I'm  don't care nearly as much about tumbling through people's squares. That 3rd level Rogue is not just some run of the mill Rogue.  He's invested a LOT into tumble to be able to get his modifie that high, and must have rolled really well or sunk half or more of his point buy into dex.  As for the greater skill focus at first...I take it he's a human, then?  How'd he reach 20 dex?  18's still amazingly not worth it barring great rolls.  Also note he cannot yet claim the synergy bonus from jump until level 2.  Just being nitpicky.  And why is tumbling around Asmodeous broken?  What good does that do?  A level 1 mage can automatically hit Asmodeous for d4 +1 damage.  Does that realy matter?  He's still dead meat if he confronts Asmodeous.No, it's an important point.  Tumbling in and of itself doesn't harm the other person.  It can't actually DO anything.  You could take skill tricks and feats (like acrobatic backstab), which typically require many ranks, pre-req feats, and higher level, to gain some kind of combat advantage from tumbling.  But tumbling alone does not do anything.  It saves your life if you get in melee with a much stronger foe, and helps you get into flanking position if you rely on sneak attack to stand any chance at all in melee.  A rogue getting SA every round is still generally at a disadvantage against an equally twinked Fighter in melee.Oh, they can dish out some great damage.  I think a good Fighter, Barbarian, or Ranger could still do cmparable, but putting that aside.  Have you ever seen monks and rogues that weren't at least a bit more "squishy" than the more melee focused counterparts?  I've made many strong monk and rogue build,s they're two of my favorite classes.  Yet to have a single one I'd feel comfortable leaving in the thick of combat for too long.  A monk especially can end up with a very high AC and defenses to avoid getting harmed.  But once that outer eggshell is cracked, the inside's all gooey.See above about other self-defeating skills.  Ninjas never crossed my mind when I made my tumble houserules.  Well, as far as I could detect.  Which means they probably did cross my mind.When I say expend an AoO usage, it's not quite the same as taking an AoO or one is being provoked.  In the non core splatbooks, especially Tome of Battle, there are feats and maneuvers to use your AoOs for the round as an expendable resource to do other things with them.  Shifting Defense, a level 5 Setting Sun stance, lets you when someone attacks and misses you, expend an AoO for the round to 5 ft step.  It is not declaring that misses on you are a new form of provoking an AoO.  It is simply giving you a new use for them, under specific conditions, with a specific benefit.  That was the same vein my CR houserule was based on.  The person tries to tumble out of your threatened square to avoid AoO's, you expend one of your AoO's to try and foil his tumbling and leave him vulnerable to attacks (in effect, his check result is replacing the DC, though I don't like to phrase it like that, since the tumbler still has to beat the regular DC and on a tie, the highest modifier would win).  That's it.Other than that the Fighter is more likely to be armed and thus actually threatening the area around himself, and has a much higher chance of actually hitting if he does get to take his AoO (and deal far more damage on said AoO...AND likely have feats to do nasty things like trip you with that AoO)...no, not really.  You already said "Its not about combat ability, its about the target's ability to interfere with the tumble. The AoO that may follow is about combat ability."  So, if it's not combat ability, and it's some sort of skill, as you say...if neither the high level Fighter nor the simple farmer has any training at all in this skill, whatever it may be, then why should the fighter be better at it?  Like I said, it'd be liek if said farmer and fighter had the same strength and no climb ranks.  Does being higher level and in a more martial (and better) class give the Fighter some kind of advantage?  No.Then why, taking possible feats out of the equation, is a level 1 Fighter with a reach weapon (and armor spikes, if you want to get nitpicky) better at controlling the area around him than a level 20 Fighter with a long sword?  the experience alone doesn't matter.  The level 20 Fighter could have taken the right feats, or perhaps this skill to counter tumble we're talking about, to be better at it.  But being high level on its own does nothing for him this regard.It also lets you take your AoOs when flatfooted and against invisible foes, so it also gives some bit or preternatural sense of your surroundings.  And having the control and skill to make multiple attacks when opponents leave themselves open in the short span of 6 seconds IS a form of bettering your ability ot control your immediate area, in my book.  So of all the core feats, it seemed like the best one to use for my houserule.Even if the 20th level wizard isn't even threatening the area around himself?  Either becauseh eh as a xbow in hand or just finds melee combat beneath him?No, without investing most/all of your feats and spending a ludrious point buy sum on dex that generally only casters are willing to spend on their casting stat, you don't start becoming super-human until around level 5-6 or higher, the generally accepted breakpoint between gritty realism and heroic fantasy.If they can kill or knock me down in one hit, they can just track me down and do that to me on their turn anyway.  How about this question: Should the Withdraw action always automatically succeed?  Shouldn't the enemy's martial skill (or whatever you think matters) make it easier or harder when used to escape from different enemies?Concentraton is also a fixed DC that has nothing to do with the threat level of the particular enemy...  Don't get started on that one, either, I take it? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I think the design assumption with both of those skills is that you're not using them "against" a foe.  The DC merely represents how hard it is to perform that action.  For spells, the difficulty from whateer the base DC is is modified by spell level.  Higher level spells are harder to concentrate on.  For tumble, the terrain you're rolling/somersaulting on can make it more difficult, as can doing a prolonged tumbling routine past several different creatures.Why if you don't like tumble automatically working, do you promote Spring Attack?  Tumble at least has circumstance modifers to make it harder, and as a skill can be subject to penalties (from fear, debuff spells and abilities, etc...).  Spring Attack, on the other hand, works as long as you cna move.  No exceptions.  And it can be had by a Human Rogue at level 3, about the same time as auto-DC 15 tumbling, if he's similarly bombing all his feats on tumble.EDIT: Spring Attack requires BAB +4, otherwise it could be taken by level 3.</blockquote>

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