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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 9024690" data-attributes="member: 7006">When talking about roleplaying games there is number line that runs between the two ends of &quot;board game&quot; and &quot;improv scene&quot;.&nbsp; And every RPG fits itself at a point between those two ends.&nbsp; Both involve creating a story... but each use a different method for resolving conflict when two or more options arise in said story.&nbsp; The improv side just involves the two active participants to mutually agree together on how the conflict resolves... the board game side uses a source outside the participants to decide-- whether that be a set of rules, the roll of a die, an impartial third-party judge or referee.&nbsp; And where a person's preferences fall on the number line is determined greatly by which method of resolution they prefer.Board games have a much smaller number of possible resolutions based upon the constraints the rules (and be extension the dice) give the participants, but they also allow participants to work as hard and as best they can to &quot;win&quot; their side of the narrative conflict without having any fear of hurting the other active participant directly.&nbsp; The game is competition (by definition) but the competition is each player against the rules and whomever succeeds the most wins.Whereas in improv... a participant goes in knowing full well that while you are going to &quot;win&quot; some sides of the narrative conflict, other times you will voluntarily lose other ones.&nbsp; That is the entire point-- to give and take with your scene partner.&nbsp; Both of you agreeing to follow whatever resolution makes the most sense for the internal logic of whatever your scene has set up.&nbsp; And you HAVE to be okay with that.&nbsp; You HAVE to be willing to let your own ideas go-- to &quot;lose&quot;-- if your idea is not the best choice for the scene (towards whatever conclusion you are striving for).&nbsp; And this means that improv IS NOT competition.Each player falls on this number line just like all games do, and in the best case scenario you will find a game that is at your same point on the line-- what best matches what you want.&nbsp; Or if the game does not... that you are willing and able to bang the rules into a shape yourself that brings it closer to you.&nbsp; And some games (like D&amp;D) are exceedingly malleable in that regard.&nbsp; The big issue though is that because it is malleable... more people along the line think D&amp;D can potentially work for them-- and they will spend huge amounts of time and effort banging away at the game to pull it towards wherever they are on the line... and spend huge amounts of time trying to convince the game's designers to help them out by getting the rules changed in such a way that it moves closer to them on their own.&nbsp; And if the designers don't do it... that's just &quot;evidence&quot; they feel that the designers are just lazy or don't know how to do it.&nbsp; Completely ignoring the idea though that their placement on the number line is just too far out of the way to warrant D&amp;D being pulled that close to them, while leaving all the other people in the other direction behind.&nbsp; It's not that D&amp;D CAN'T go to where they are on the line (due to laziness or incapability)... it's that the designer don't WANT to put D&amp;D there.&nbsp; And at some point you just have to accept it.The one advantage I think those of us at the &quot;improv&quot; end have over those on the &quot;board game&quot; when it comes to being satisfied with D&amp;D is that we've been trained to &quot;voluntarily lose&quot; in all of these conflicts and be okay with it.&nbsp; So if I see the D&amp;D game is not moving towards me, and includes rules or formats that are more &quot;board game-like&quot; than I think are really necessary (or even fun)... I am more readily able to just shrug my shoulders and accept it.&nbsp; That's just my nature in these things.&nbsp; I can't and won't win them all-- I do improv after all-- and so when I look at the rules of D&amp;D, &quot;it is what it is&quot;.&nbsp; But for those on the other end?&nbsp; Those for whom the competition is the point?&nbsp; Of course they will fight and work to get the game closer to what they prefer.&nbsp; That's their nature too.&nbsp; Bu the rest of us just hope that they aren't &quot;poor sports&quot; about it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 9024690, member: 7006"] When talking about roleplaying games there is number line that runs between the two ends of "board game" and "improv scene". And every RPG fits itself at a point between those two ends. Both involve creating a story... but each use a different method for resolving conflict when two or more options arise in said story. The improv side just involves the two active participants to mutually [I]agree together[/I] on how the conflict resolves... the board game side uses a source [I]outside[/I] the participants to decide-- whether that be a set of rules, the roll of a die, an impartial third-party judge or referee. And where a person's preferences fall on the number line is determined greatly by which method of resolution they prefer. Board games have a much smaller number of possible resolutions based upon the constraints the rules (and be extension the dice) give the participants, but they also allow participants to work as hard and as best they can to "win" their side of the narrative conflict without having any fear of hurting the other active participant directly. The game is competition (by definition) but the competition is each player against the rules and whomever succeeds the most wins. Whereas in improv... a participant goes in knowing full well that while you are going to "win" some sides of the narrative conflict, other times you will [I]voluntarily lose[/I] other ones. That is the entire point-- to give and take with your scene partner. Both of you agreeing to follow whatever resolution makes the most sense for the internal logic of whatever your scene has set up. And you HAVE to be okay with that. You HAVE to be willing to let your own ideas go-- to "lose"-- if your idea is not the best choice for the scene (towards whatever conclusion you are striving for). And this means that improv IS NOT competition. Each player falls on this number line just like all games do, and in the best case scenario you will find a game that is at your same point on the line-- what best matches what you want. Or if the game does not... that you are willing and able to bang the rules into a shape yourself that brings it closer to you. And some games (like D&D) are exceedingly malleable in that regard. The big issue though is that [I]because[/I] it is malleable... more people along the line think D&D can potentially work for them-- and they will spend huge amounts of time and effort banging away at the game to pull it towards wherever they are on the line... and spend huge amounts of time trying to convince the game's designers to help them out by getting the rules changed in such a way that it moves closer to them on their own. And if the designers don't do it... that's just "evidence" they feel that the designers are just lazy or don't know how to do it. Completely ignoring the idea though that their placement on the number line is just too far out of the way to warrant D&D being pulled that close to them, while leaving all the other people in the other direction behind. It's not that D&D CAN'T go to where they are on the line (due to laziness or incapability)... it's that the designer don't WANT to put D&D there. And at some point you just have to accept it. The one advantage I think those of us at the "improv" end have over those on the "board game" when it comes to being satisfied with D&D is that we've been trained to "voluntarily lose" in all of these conflicts and be okay with it. So if I see the D&D game is not moving towards me, and includes rules or formats that are more "board game-like" than I think are really necessary (or even fun)... I am more readily able to just shrug my shoulders and accept it. That's just my nature in these things. I can't and won't win them all-- I do improv after all-- and so when I look at the rules of D&D, "it is what it is". But for those on the other end? Those for whom the competition is the point? [I]Of course[/I] they will fight and work to get the game closer to what they prefer. That's their nature too. Bu the rest of us just hope that they aren't "poor sports" about it. [/QUOTE]

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