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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9034550" data-attributes="member: 71699">I had in mind your earlier fourfold! I can writeFor players seeking Score and Achievement design, &quot;narrative&quot; generally isn't that important, but would be something like &quot;I have symbols I can latch onto and my choices chain together my manipulation of those progressively&quot; To those seeking Groundedness and Simulation design, &quot;narrative&quot; means something like &quot;you can narrate events consistently and meaningfully&quot; For Conceit and Emulation design fans, &quot;narrative&quot; means something like &quot;faithful depiction of the scenes will narrate our overarching conceit&quot; And for fans of Values and Issues, &quot;narrative&quot; means something like &quot;the stories told are human stories... the story of our inner lives.&quot;Okay, slightly facetious, and not at all thought through... but perhaps it communicates my point. Which is that all of the folds are found in every game. So to single out immersion as present in every fold, but not itself able to be prioritised for play, seems arbitrary.I think everyone wants narration. They want to be able to narrate their play. Self-narration of wargames, as hard-out examples of gamism, is something I've been able to discuss fruitfully with fellow gamers, who attest to also performing it. Everyone wants gamism... few to no games avoid it completely. Watching a story-game session the other day, for just one example, the gamist implications of weapon tags were given voice to. It was all pretty relaxed, but there were gamist factors contributing to the scene.So on the one hand, I really do wonder if immersion is just not so basic to what a game is, that as you say it can't really be separated out. And on the other hand, isn't gamism basic to what a game is? Isn't narrative basic to what a TTRPG is? That said, if I accept the premise that immersion is inevitable and the others are evitable, I'd conclude as you do. So let's also consider &quot;immersionism&quot; as a label...&quot;Simulationism&quot; doesn't quite fit because in the end it is the immersion in world, not the simulation of world, that is prioritised. Which hearks back to [USER=7023840]@Snarf Zagyg[/USER]'s comment: I guess one can go where one's heart takes one, but when it's niche good luck seeing one's preferred self-identification prevail.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 9034550, member: 71699"] I had in mind your earlier fourfold! I can write For players seeking Score and Achievement design, "narrative" generally isn't that important, but would be something like "I have symbols I can latch onto and my choices chain together my manipulation of those progressively" To those seeking Groundedness and Simulation design, "narrative" means something like "you can narrate events consistently and meaningfully" For Conceit and Emulation design fans, "narrative" means something like "faithful depiction of the scenes will narrate our overarching conceit" And for fans of Values and Issues, "narrative" means something like "the stories told are human stories... the story of our inner lives." Okay, slightly facetious, and not at all thought through... but perhaps it communicates my point. Which is that all of the folds are found in every game. So to single out immersion as present in every fold, but not itself able to be prioritised for play, seems arbitrary. I think everyone wants narration. They want to be able to narrate their play. Self-narration of wargames, as hard-out examples of gamism, is something I've been able to discuss fruitfully with fellow gamers, who attest to also performing it. Everyone wants gamism... few to no games avoid it completely. Watching a story-game session the other day, for just one example, the gamist implications of weapon tags were given voice to. It was all pretty relaxed, but there were gamist factors contributing to the scene. So on the one hand, I really do wonder if immersion is just not so basic to what a game is, that as you say it can't really be separated out. And on the other hand, isn't gamism basic to what a game is? Isn't narrative basic to what a TTRPG is? That said, if I accept the premise that immersion is inevitable and the others are evitable, I'd conclude as you do. So let's also consider "immersionism" as a label... "Simulationism" doesn't quite fit because in the end it is the immersion in world, not the simulation of world, that is prioritised. Which hearks back to [USER=7023840]@Snarf Zagyg[/USER]'s comment: I guess one can go where one's heart takes one, but when it's niche good luck seeing one's preferred self-identification prevail. [/QUOTE]

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