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<blockquote data-quote="TYPO5478" data-source="post: 3149355" data-attributes="member: 37531">I thought you might say that.&nbsp; I believe that flaming sphere should have &quot;See text&quot; as its saving throw entry instead of &quot;Reflex negates.&quot;&nbsp; Granted, it isn't there, but that's neither the first nor the most significant printing error in that book.&nbsp; However, let us assume that it is written the way it was intended...This seems to imply that after a single successful reflex check, an opponent cannot be affected by the same flaming sphere for its duration (although that seems to be contradicted by the text of flaming sphere).&nbsp; It doesn't even specify when the reflex check may be made, implying that the simple act of casting flaming sphere would be considered an attack before it has had a chance to do damage to anything.&nbsp; On the other hand, if the saving throw entry read &quot;See text,&quot; the save would necessarily come when when the conditions were met: an opponent is actually threatened with contact by the sphere.&nbsp; I think this is the best reason for changing the entry.Do you really see that much of a difference between those two saves?&nbsp; Except for the objects involved, they're exactly the same (another reason I think the save entry for flaming sphere should be changed).&nbsp; Plus, you're equivocating here.&nbsp; The save for flaming sphere is not against the spell itself.&nbsp; The spell's effect is already manifest (like the iron wall); the save is an attempt to physically avoid, to literally move out of the way of a threatening object (just like the iron wall).&nbsp; Hence the reflex save... the same save allowed to avoid the falling wall.&nbsp; Or an intentionally sprung trap.&nbsp; Or a rope bridge dropping out from underneath you.&nbsp; The fact that the object happens to have been created by magic is immaterial (pun slightly intended <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />).However, all of this is getting away from the fact that the damage from the spell's effect is still indirect and therefore doesn't negate invisibility.Considering the definition of saving throws above, this is a circular definition.&nbsp; Not to mention the fact that the definition appears to use &quot;subject&quot; and &quot;target&quot; synonymously.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="TYPO5478, post: 3149355, member: 37531"] I thought you might say that. I believe that [I]flaming sphere[/I] should have "See text" as its saving throw entry instead of "Reflex negates." Granted, it isn't there, but that's neither the first nor the most significant printing error in that book. However, let us assume that it is written the way it was intended... This seems to imply that after a single successful reflex check, an opponent cannot be affected by the same flaming sphere for its duration (although that seems to be contradicted by the text of [I]flaming sphere[/I]). It doesn't even specify when the reflex check may be made, implying that the simple act of casting [I]flaming sphere[/I] would be considered an attack before it has had a chance to do damage to anything. On the other hand, if the saving throw entry read "See text," the save would necessarily come when when the conditions were met: an opponent is actually threatened with contact by the sphere. I think this is the best reason for changing the entry. Do you really see that much of a difference between those two saves? Except for the objects involved, they're exactly the same (another reason I think the save entry for flaming sphere should be changed). Plus, you're equivocating here. The save for [I]flaming sphere[/I] is not against the spell itself. The spell's effect is already manifest (like the iron wall); the save is an attempt to physically avoid, to literally move out of the way of a threatening object (just like the iron wall). Hence the reflex save... the same save allowed to avoid the falling wall. Or an intentionally sprung trap. Or a rope bridge dropping out from underneath you. The fact that the object happens to have been created by magic is immaterial (pun slightly intended ;)). However, all of this is getting away from the fact that the damage from the spell's effect is still indirect and therefore doesn't negate [I]invisibility[/I]. Considering the definition of saving throws above, this is a circular definition. Not to mention the fact that the definition appears to use "subject" and "target" synonymously. [/QUOTE]

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