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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 8167537" data-attributes="member: 6987520">Ok sure, let's do this-- I have tomorrow off. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Six ogres? A mighty big "room" but ok, especially with "enough room for a few more persons to get in." If that is all the extra room there is, those ogres must be feeling pretty darn cramped IMO.Anyway...A few attacks by who? The PCs? Six ogres against a party of what? Party consistency is part of the picture as well. Let's assume a party of 4, so you have the 1.5 to 1 ratio you mention. Even at 6th level, 6 ogres would be a deadly encounter, regardless of tactics. At 7th, it becomes hard, at 8th moderate, and finally easy at 11th level. So, let's make it "hard" and say the PCs are 7th level.As to blocking the door: the players are idiots IMO. That is the worst thing they can do. They stay in the corridor (typical D&D 10-footer?) so only one ogre can approach the party at a time. You let the ogre block the door so the other ogres can't get at the party.Sure, even in the corridor your tactic of the ogre grapping one of the two PCs on the front line could happen. You suggest the "high AC" PC, so if this is a front-liner, let's assume proficiency in Athletics and STR 16, so +6 vs. the Ogre's +4 for STR only. The ogre would have about a 38% chance of winning in the grapple attack, so there's a decent chance it will work--benefit of the doubt.That isn't how it works. The ogre can move and take the PC with him, but unless he actually moves, the PC isn't moved either. But, for discussion's sake let's agree the ogre drags the PC back into the room where other ogres are waiting. Well, an ogre can move 40. So, if it moved into the corridor, it will likely have maybe 20 feet of movement left. Dragging the grappled PC halves movement so the ogre can only go 10 feet--not very far--assuming it can move even that much. And of course the other front-liner PC will get an OA (give that PC a hit and Sentinel and the ogre isn't moving at all <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> ).So, the other ogres surround the PC (you're right with their reach of 5 feet, only 4 ogres could be in position). The grappling ogre isn't doing anything, so the other three attack with +3 to hit. Given this is the "high-AC" PC, at best--even with +3--each has maybe a 50/50 chance of hitting. shrugOk, so you are trading 1 normal attack at +6 and 3 attacks at +9 for two attacks at +9 with advantage. Fine. Let's do the math. We'll assume the PC has AC 20 (reasonable for a high-AC PC at level 7 IMO).Scenario 1: one at +6 and three at +9: expected damage is 25.85 per round.A (+6): 0.3 x 13 + 0.05 x 22 (critical) = 5B (+9): 0.45 x 13 + 0.05 x 22 = 6.95 x 3 = 20.85Scenario 2: two at +9 with advantage: expected damage is 21.255 per round.(+9): 0.6525 x 13 + 0.0975 x 22 = 10.6275 x 2 = 21.255Scenario 3 (RAW): four attacks at +6 with advantage: expected damage is 33.54 per round.(+6): 0.48 x 13 + 0.0975 x 22 = 8.385 x 4 = 33.54So, of course RAW has the highest damage at 33.54, but you seem to think two ogres "helping" while only two attack will be more deadly than if all four attack? No, giving a couple ogres advantage by helping is a losing strategy for the ogres--but then again, they aren't too bright. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Scenario 3 (RAW) is easy: 20 points per round expected. (All with advantage cancelled by the Dodge action gives 5 expected damage per ogre).Scenario 1: all attack with disadvantage: expected damage is 11.4325 (44% of the non-Dodge expected damage)A (+6): 0.12 x 13 + 0.0025 x 22 = 1.615B (+9): 24.75 x 13 + 0.0025 x 22 = 3.2725 x 3 = 9.8175Scenario 2: two attack as normal (helping cancels the disadvantage imposed by dodging): expected damage is 13.9 (65% of the non-Dodge)(+9): 0.45 x 13 + 0.05 x 22 = 6.95 x 2 = 13.9So, if the PC decides to dodge, then the ogres helping each other will work out better, but whether or not it is a good strategy for the PC depends largely on what the other three PCs are doing. Either way, the PC will live longer with the reduced damage and if the PCs move into the room they are actually now flanking a couple ogres (if the surrounded PC is attacking, that is...).Well, of course, but that is pretty realistic isn't it? To have a game where having extra numbers in battle isn't a contributing factor is pretty poor design. I agree for many tables advantage is too strong, so my idea offers a method where numbers can still matter, but not as much as normal flanking would.Anyway, also with my idea you would need a large number of allies to come close to giving you the same increase advantage does. Given the numbers above, of a 6-4 battle, if things happen to get "spread out" more evenly (2-1, 2-1, 1-1, 1-1) then two ogres would get a +1 and that's it. Not as big a deal, is it? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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