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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5625266" data-attributes="member: 4937">I haven't read the thread yet, but, "Yes."However, a caveat on the side of your player.  To me this only applies if:a) The character was surprised.ORb) This is the first full round the character has been aware of the threat.ORc) The character could not have possibly concieved of the attacker as a threat before this round.One thing I don't like is that many DMs tend to read this rule as if no meeting engagement is possible in D&D.  They tend to apply this rule as if every encounter is an ambush.  If the character has prepared himself for combat with a potential threat he has percieved, even if you haven't rolled for initiative yet, then he's not flatfooted.This matters when the PC is put in an ambigious situation where he feels threatened but combat doesn't begin immediately.  If the PC declares he's readying himself for action and he can percieve the threat, then he's not flatfooted.  He still might lose the initiative but he's no longer unprepared for combat, and some who wishes to deny them their dex bonus will have to come up with an alternative plan.  The way to look at this is to imagine that the character is always in combat whenever the encounter begins.  Four hundred yards up the round, a group of armed horsemen step out on to the road.  The party declares we are readying weapons and holding our ground.  The next round the horsemen turn and come up the road at a walk, and halt a minute later 60' from the party.  The party has been standing their ready for combat four 10 rounds, staring directly at their foes.  They can't be surprised and they they aren't flat footed, even if I don't roll for initiative at this time and even if they lose initiative when negotiations with the bandits break down .  Even if I don't roll initiative immediately, the game state at any time has to look exactly like I had rolled initiative at the earliest possible point and ran things round by round until that point.If a PC quibbles with this, I typically start running everything round by round until they change their mind.Full details about how I adjudicate this.  Imagine we have a situation where the party is at a ball, and there are secretly assassins at the ball who are planning a surprise attack.  Many different situations can arrise:a) The assassin attack before the party has detected them.  They are flatfooted, and if they lose their initiative they are flat-footed in the next round.b) The assassins have been observing the party for some time.  The party detects the assassins just as their target comes into the room.  Just as they do, the assassins are immediately aware that they have been observed and so attack immediately.  The party is not surprised, but they are flat-footed if they lose the initiative.c) The assassins have their attention focused on the gaurds and are not aware that the party represents a threat.  The party detects the assassins, and just as they do, the assassins are are aware that their cover is blown and so attack.  Neither side is surprised, but either side is flat-footed if they lose the initiative.d) The assassins have their attention focused on the gaurds.  The party detects the assassins but decides to observe them for while.  The assassins detect that they are being observed, but decide to wait and see what happens.  If combat begins at a later point, neither side can be surprised nor can either side be flat-footed provided both sides continue the observation.e) The assassins have their attention focused on the gaurds.  The party detects that assassins and covertly observes them, but the assassins do not detect that the party is observing them and is not aware that they are a threat.  In this situation, if the assassins begin combat, they can be both surprised by the party (the effective equivalent of the party readying an action each round they observed the assassins) and if they lose initiative they will be flat footed.And so forth.  Thus, just as we expect in the real world, an entire spectrum is possible between one side surprising the other and one side not.  A true meeting engagement is actually possible interpretting the rules this way.  This suggests to me that it is the correct and intended interpretation.Obviously, when we break this situation down to the level of individual characters, any or all of the above are simultaneously possible.  Some assassins might surprise some party members while simultaneously being surprised and attacked by others, and so forth.</blockquote>

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