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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5625346" data-attributes="member: 4937">Arrowhawk, you are new, so I'm just going to say that in general, if something seems to make no sense at all, your best first move is almost always to consider the fault lies with you.  If it still seems wierd after some deep thought, then the next best move is to sincerely ask for someone else's opinion.  Deciding to launch an all out attack on the position before you have done the first two things is bad tactical decision.  Typically, you don't make yourself seem as reasonable as you think you are being.Your basic problem is with this conclusion: - emphasis added by meThe phase 'this illustrates' and 'which is totally required based on the RAW' are IMO the source of your confusion.  The situation you describe does not describe a situation where either party is flat footed, and therefore neither the situation nor the outcome is required based on the RAW.Looking at the example again: If the two have been seeing each other for at least a round, then neither can be flat-footed.  Both have had a chance to act, even if they had nothing productive to do on their turn, they've both had a chance to act and therefore neither can be flat footed.  Combat has actually begun.  Nothing in the RAW requires us to wait until the gates open to roll for initiative.  In fact, if that was how we were to read the raw - and in my opinion its an inaccurate reading - then if I was the player of Fighter A, I would do everything in my power to game the system and try to force the DM to allow the initiative check before the gate opened.  I would declare, purely for the purpose of forcing the DM to switch on 'combat mode' that I was trying to hit the other fighter with a ranged touch attack - my spit or maybe a bit of sand from the arena floor, or that I wanted to ready my weapon to recieve a charge, or that I wanted to attempt combat intimidation to try to rattle my foe before the gate openned.You see the basic problem with your scenario isn't the rules, but the DM.  The DM has delayed making the initiative roll past the point where the initiative first becomes relevant to the situation, and is now complaining about the lack of logic resulting in the rules after making this illogical ruling.  Initiatives are rolled whenever they are relevant.  If they would be relevant to the outcome and fail to roll them, you can't complain that the game state has become illogical because it is you that have decided to hand wave the game situation.  In fact, at my table, any player at any time for any reason can ask for an initiative check whenever they feel that the order of actions whether they are attack actions or not is relevant. Being flat-footed does not refer to a situation where two sides are aware of each other.  It refers to a sitaution where the two sides are not fully aware and not fully prepared and hense can be caught 'flat footed'.If you do the same situation, only the two parties are literally flat footed and unware that they are about to be thrust into combat and unaware of the other party, then the plausiblity of the more agile character being caught flat footed returned.   Let's again suppose we have a meeting engagement.  The same two gladiators are behind a solid gate, unaware of the nature of what is beyond.  Without warning, two heavy weights descend and both gates suddenly spring open.  Both fighters could be surprised, but they both roll spot checks (they are trivial as both fighters are in the others line of site) and so both see the threat.  There is no surprise round, so we roll initiative.  Because neither side has yet acted, both could be caught flat footed by this situation.  Fighter A has a huge advantage.  Normally he has much better reflexes than Fighter B, but for whatever reason today, he's hit by a bit of bad luck.  Instead of leaping into action as he ought, he's startled by the sudden movement of the gate and the sudden roar of the crowd.  His normal aclarity fails him and instead of paying attention, he's looking up at the stands, checking behind him to see what triggered the gate opening, thinking about the fact that his heart is racing, and generally overcoming his startled and confused state.  He's seen Fighter B, but he's not really putting the gravity of the situation together like he should.  His mind hasn't caught up to the moment and put his incredible grace into motion; he's just sort of strolling out of the gate without really putting himself on a sound defensive footing.  Meanwhile, Fighter B is normally a clumsy and slow footed sort, but even before the gate was opened, he happened to have stumbled in its direction and now finds himself weapon up running across the stadium oblivious to anything but that guy who is going to kill him.Fighter A is, by an incredible bit of luck, flat footed with respect to Fighter B. Now, you can complain about the fact that the d20 fortune mechanic can be too random at time, and it can.  Sometimes guys with 7 strength manage to do feats of strength that guys with 20 strength failed at.   If that really bothers you, go to a smaller dice for initiative (like 1e) and reimplement the 'Bend Bars/Open Gates' check (like 1e).  But the basic problem here isn't the flat-footed rule.</blockquote>

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