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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5626154" data-attributes="member: 4937">- emphasis addedI'm going to try to keep my response short, but this is the heart of where you are going wrong.  All characters take actions all the time; I agree.  That's trivially true.  It does not follow that any action taken stops you from being flat-footed.But it does follow that any action taken after you are aware of an enemy does stop you from being flatfooted, because, that's literally the rules.We start counting the rounds at the point the two characters become aware of each other.  We'll consider why in your example, because it's a pretty unambigious and clear cut case: Alright, so, you've already departed from the rules so don't be surprised if the rules stop making sense from here on out.  I don't really know what is going on in your scenario because you've suspended the rules.  The first thing that should happen here is that there should be at least one and perhaps two opposed rolls between the two sides that have just encountered each other.  First, there should be the NPC's hide roll opposed by the PC's spot roll to determine whether the NPC achieves surprise.  If he doesn't achieve surprise, then the he doesn't necesarily get to act first.  Secondly, there could have concievably been a hide/move siliently roll by the NPC's spot/listen to see if the PC ambushed the ambusher!  Maybe the ambusher had been distracted or dozed off a bit when the PC entered the ally and failed to notice him the in the gloom.  You are apparantly running this whole show by arbitrary fiat, so its no wonder that you feel entitled to continue to do so.  And not to put too fine a point on it, but if the above example is how you run your game, you are probably in fact cheating.Thirdly, assuming the PC isn't surprised, why didn't you roll initiative at this point?  This is an obvious combat situation with the knives out?  What's your excuse? Why have you automaticly assumed that the NPC got the drop on the PC and that he gets to act first?  It's almost like you are being vague and arbitrary in the application of your rules to gaurantee the NPC has a winning hand.  You've essentially assigned the initiative to the NPC via narration here, and you are apparantly trying to prolong the PC's flatfooted state indefinately.Ok, this is dumb move by the PC, because if he was surprised he's potentially flatfooted.  A better move by the PC would be to try to wait out the surprise by taking pretty much any other action than trying to win a battle of reflexes with an unknown attacker.  However, sure, a lot of PC's are dumb this way.I never said that actions before the combat started effect flat-footed at all.  And secondly the player is wrong.  The player has not yet taken an action since encountering the NPC.  So the scenario you have set up here is not comparable with the scenario you described, namely: "a character who has prepared himself with a potential threat he has perceived".  This PC has done nothing to prepare himself to deal with a potential threat he has percieved.     The GM is right, I have no quibble with that.Errrmmm.... you know, when you can't describe my argument correctly, you are in no position to make that judgement.  Nor am I delusional.Yes. But I didn't say that, did I? None of that contridicts what I have said.Let's back up and do this right. Let's assume the PC in your example was surprised.  On the surprise round, the NPC steps out, brandishes his dagger, and tries to intimidate the PC.  Surprise round is now over.  We roll initiative.  The NPC wins with an 18 and does what?  Presumably he readies an action to stab the PC if he moves, or he attacks and hits the PC flatfooted.  But he does something, although I notice that it seems you like to keep what the NPC has done nicely ambigious.  Have you decided what the NPC's ready action is at this point?  Because PC's are usually limited to declaring a single ready trigger, and you seem to have given the NPC the ability to be ready for anything.  Assuming the NPC is trying to rob the character, he probably readies an attack action if the player moves and tries to be intimidating.  That seems to be what you are implying.  Now, it is the PC's turn.  He gets to do something.  It doesn't matter what he does, it could be draw a dagger, it could be bluff the NPC, it could be try to use diplomacy to obtain a more favorable relationship with the NPC, it could be to respond with intimidation of his own, it could be do one of the above and take the full defensive action.  However, after he acts, doing whatever it is he does, the character is no longer flatfooted. Now, if in round two, the NPC tries to stab me then if you claim I'm flatfooted then I'm not the one with a problem understanding the rules.  And if you skip the surprise check and the initiative roll and everything else in the rules and decide after not following the rules in the 1st round, that in the 2nd or 5th round of the encounter that now we roll for initiative and then you say that because I lost initiative on the 5th or 10th round of the battle that I'm flatfooted, then again I'm not the one with a problem with the rules.  Don't try to claim that you are playing by the RAW if you do that.</blockquote>

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