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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Water Bob" data-source="post: 5626168" data-attributes="member: 92305">Let me ask you something....  Do you always roll initiative as soon as two characters become aware of each other? I have a thread about this: asking GMs when they throw nish. I think there are situations where you'll want to throw nish as soon as two characters are aware of each other. A gladiator entering a ring where he knows he's going to fight the other guy to the death, is a good example. But, by far, I think most GMs do not roll initiative at this point. I think most people wait for the last possible moment to go into tactical combat rounds. They keep the game in "scenes" as long as possible before going into the slower, tactical, combat mode that the game refers to as "combat".    I'll say this too, in response to your quote above. If you're not throwing nish (and you're not playing a Surprise round), then you're not in combat (by the rules). And, if you're not in combat, you can't be counting rounds. So, it comes down to my question: Do you always throw initiative as soon as two characters are aware of each other?       BTW, you're incorrect here, too, when you said of my example:  The thug was behind 100% cover, so the PC does not get a Spot check to notice the thug. There was no way for the PC to notice the thug unless the thug was making noise (the PC would get a Listen check), but he didn't. By-the-book, I should have said that the thug passed a Listen check himself to hear the PC's approach. But, with the PC's boots slapping on the cobblestones, I, as GM, considered that a DC 5. The thug has Listen +5, so success is automatic. No need to bog the game down with rolls like this when their outcome is obvious. At this point, the thug could have taken Surprise on the PC, but Surprise only allows for a Standard Action. Thus, the thug would have to wait for the PC to pass and then throw his stilletto--the thug's only weapon--at the PC. The thug, instead, decided to step out and confront his victim. Maybe he could get the wayward traveler to give up his goods without the thug having to fight him. By the rules, that's what happened in that scenario--IF THE TWO WERE IN COMBAT. But....the two weren't in combat, where they? Nope. So, the encounter is not bound by the Combat rules--not unitl Combat ensues. When the PC decided to attack the thug, that aggressive act indicates the start of combat. Initiative is rolled, which the thug won. All of that is completely RAW.       EDIT: In post #123 above, you say...  That not what the rules say. I think this is where your logic is straying from RAW. The rules say that you roll initiative at the start of a battle. If you're not going to have a battle, then you don't need to roll initiative. You can stay in "scenes".   For example, with my PC-in-the-ally example, the thug jumps out and tells the PC to give him all his goods. The PC may have done just that--handed over all his goods. The entire encounter could have been played out without resorting to combat. No combat means no initiative required.       EDIT 2:  By the way, you should look at the Combat example starting on pg. 8 of the 3.5 DMG. You said:  And, I told you above that combat had not started yet, so what you suggest here is not necessary. You also said:  Now, I want you to read the Combat example given in the DMG, starting on pg. 8.  At the top of page. 9, you'll see that the GM in that example ran his game the exact way that I described in my example. See how the GM automatically gave Surprise to the spider, and the spider rolled the touch attack to land on one of the PC's shoulders? That's exactly the same type of action that happened in my example.  The PC could not see the thug behind 100% cover, and I saw no reason to give the PC a Listen check to the PC (if there's nothing to hear, there's no need for a check....the thug was extremely quiet, lying in wait behind his cover for someone to come down the ally). The thug could have taken advantage of a Surprise round, but, as I said above, I decided that he wouldn't start the combat at that point--instead giving his victim a chance to hand over his goods and leave the ally alive. Like the spider plopping on the character's shoulder, about to bite her, the GM rolled initiative just when the first attack throw was indicated. And, what do ya know....I did the same thing in my example!</blockquote>

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