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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arrowhawk" data-source="post: 5626671" data-attributes="member: 6679551">Perhaps I should have said, "Delay" your initiative wth a capitol D....let's looks at the d20 source Delay By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point. You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what’s going to happen. You can’t, however, interrupt anyone else’s action (as you can with a readied action). When you Delay, your first "regular turn" occures when you decide your new initiative score.  You cannot Delay your action and avoid being flat footed.  Either you take your initiative as rolled, or you substitute your roll for a lesser number and you are treated as having actually rolled that number, in which case you are FF to all those with a higher initiative in that first round even though you technically won initiative.  The "Ready" action is different. Nice try, though.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />   Yes...the same ability has the same modifier on both activities...based on the same ability of reflex, agility, and and manual dexterity.   So a situation which denies one but not the other is illogical and internally inconsistent.  The game tries to explain itself around this by adding in notions of "luck" and "miraculous factors."  Yet none of these factors seem to have any modifier to speak of.   Only one thing affects a "reflex" save...and that's reflexes...which come from your Dexterity.  Concocting bogus elaborate reasons why one applies and one doesn't...is just that...bogus.  It's like saying we're going to allow any Halfing with a Strength of 14 to treat it as a 25.   "See, there's this magic stone at the center of the earth that causes this effect, that's why it's plausible."  Right.  Gotcha. Look it's a game...so we set the inconsistencies aside because it serves a purpose: probably game balance.  One can imagine that if Reflex saves were denied or severely hampered based on the Flat Footed state, arcane spell caster with high Dex and Improved Initiative would be way more powerful than they were intended to be.  As it stands now, the only people who arguably gain the most are Rogues with Sneak Attack.  A most likely intended consequence. I don't care if the game departs from reality or consistency.  What I am curious about is why it is done in any particular situation.  In the case of Reflex saves...it seems pretty obvious.</blockquote>

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