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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 4277625" data-attributes="member: 5143">Ok, I'm with you here.&nbsp; That is true.Here's where I'm confused.&nbsp; What is ambiguous about the effect of any power in the game?&nbsp; One power hurts an enemy and heals an ally.&nbsp; One power creates a wall that does damage to people who pass through it.&nbsp; One gives someone an extra attack.&nbsp; They all seem completely staight forward to me.I know that when an enemy hits me with an attack that immobilizes me that it will run out in a couple of rounds, it doesn't last very long most of the time.&nbsp; That's not metagaming at all.I don't think you need immersion in a game for it to be a role playing game.&nbsp; The goal of a role playing game is to play a character who exists in a fictional world and get to make decisions for him on what he does.&nbsp; You can do that with or without immersion.&nbsp; Besides, it depends what you mean by immersion.&nbsp; To me, if the world behaves how I expect it to, I have immersion.&nbsp; Even if it takes 30 minutes of discussing the rules to come up with what happens.Some people believe that immersion means that the world is so close to being realistic that you could close your eyes and you might not even notice you are playing a game.&nbsp; That the goal of immersion is to close your eyes and pretend your not actually rolling dice and hopefully to get the rules to the point where you don't actually use them during the game.&nbsp; Since each time you need to reference rules, role dice to pick up a pencil you are breaking immersion.I think that sort of immersion is bad, personally.&nbsp; It leads to extremely boring sessions of D&amp;D all in the name of immersion.&nbsp; i.e. &quot;This week our session is going to be about the party you guys have after you got back to town after slaying the dragon.&nbsp; Some NPCs will come up to you and congratulate you, you can role play with each other.&nbsp; You can pretend that you are drinking Ale.&nbsp; It will be a fun 4 hours because we'll be immersing ourselves in exactly what the characters would be doing.&quot;&nbsp; I'd rather go to a real part than play a D&amp;D game pretending we were having one.&nbsp; I'd rather the DM summarize the party as &quot;You have a good party and then wake up the next day hungover.&quot;True.&nbsp; And I haven't seen anything that breaks this in 4e.&nbsp; In fact, I saw a lot more of it in 3e.&nbsp; In 4e, players so far have said &quot;Oh, so this power does damage and heals someone...cool, I'll use it when someone needs healing.&quot;&nbsp; In 3e, I've seen people attempt all sorts of convoluted cartwheels to convince the DM that powers that should never logically work together should work because that's what the rules say.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 4277625, member: 5143"] Ok, I'm with you here. That is true. Here's where I'm confused. What is ambiguous about the effect of any power in the game? One power hurts an enemy and heals an ally. One power creates a wall that does damage to people who pass through it. One gives someone an extra attack. They all seem completely staight forward to me. I know that when an enemy hits me with an attack that immobilizes me that it will run out in a couple of rounds, it doesn't last very long most of the time. That's not metagaming at all. I don't think you need immersion in a game for it to be a role playing game. The goal of a role playing game is to play a character who exists in a fictional world and get to make decisions for him on what he does. You can do that with or without immersion. Besides, it depends what you mean by immersion. To me, if the world behaves how I expect it to, I have immersion. Even if it takes 30 minutes of discussing the rules to come up with what happens. Some people believe that immersion means that the world is so close to being realistic that you could close your eyes and you might not even notice you are playing a game. That the goal of immersion is to close your eyes and pretend your not actually rolling dice and hopefully to get the rules to the point where you don't actually use them during the game. Since each time you need to reference rules, role dice to pick up a pencil you are breaking immersion. I think that sort of immersion is bad, personally. It leads to extremely boring sessions of D&D all in the name of immersion. i.e. "This week our session is going to be about the party you guys have after you got back to town after slaying the dragon. Some NPCs will come up to you and congratulate you, you can role play with each other. You can pretend that you are drinking Ale. It will be a fun 4 hours because we'll be immersing ourselves in exactly what the characters would be doing." I'd rather go to a real part than play a D&D game pretending we were having one. I'd rather the DM summarize the party as "You have a good party and then wake up the next day hungover." True. And I haven't seen anything that breaks this in 4e. In fact, I saw a lot more of it in 3e. In 4e, players so far have said "Oh, so this power does damage and heals someone...cool, I'll use it when someone needs healing." In 3e, I've seen people attempt all sorts of convoluted cartwheels to convince the DM that powers that should never logically work together should work because that's what the rules say. [/QUOTE]

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