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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ydars" data-source="post: 4277729" data-attributes="member: 62992">Majoru; HiPerhaps I didn't explain myself that well; it has been known  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> What I mean about 4E promoting metagaming is this; what do HP represent in 4E? Different things in different circumstances because a PC can heal ALL HP after a six hour rest naturally, yet loss of all of them can clearly kill you. So what do they represent in the real world? People have suggested they represent a combination of luck/fatigue and morale but who ever heard of a sword that just damaged these things? So it is harder to play the game without tripping all over these meta-game concepts because they get in the way you portray your character. I know the way many people play D&D and other RPGs mean that this will not arise because as I define it, they spend the whole time metagaming.I am not knocking 4E for the sake of it; I actually like the game but it raises alot of flags of disbelief for the players and the DM and I was pointing out that the fluff gives no real explanation for many of the gamist elements of 4E; it is a heck of a game nonetheless. Hell; I wish WoTC had gone the whole hog with the hero thing and stated that PCs are all like they are in Exalted; very powerful and with a spark of the divine in them that means they heal phenomenally quickly. I would prefer that a story explanaed this strange powers rather than just leaving them as bare mechanics. I mean I know that divine challenge deals damage if you attack anyone but the Paladin, but why and how?Once you have problems with a baseline concept like HP, what are healing surges? Why are some powers only usable once per day (once per encounter is fine; there are some obvious reasons) but once per day for martial powers makes NO sense. I understand it is for game balance, but how does the player of a fighter justify this metaconcepts' effect on his character?You also talked about Immersion. I don't think you understand my use of that word. I mean game sessions that are so compelling and so vivid that when the game is over, you are almost shocked to "be back in your own body". Immersion for me means that you connect with the story on a visceral/emotional level, not just the intellectual level that most people seem to game on. You literally have forgotten everything but your character and the adventure and you really were "there". Everything that breaks immersion this makes the game far less fun and in a immersion game, the players and DM try not to mention the rules AT all; you still play by the rules, but there is NO discussion of them at the table and dice rolls are done discreetly or else all by the DM. I know lots of people have never gamed like this or had such an experience and I can only say that I feel sorry for them, because it is THE greatest gaming experience there is, at least for me. Many people think they would be uncomfortable gaming like this, but when they actually are there they can't believe it. I am not describing it very well, but you know you have got to it when experience points don't matter, treasure doesn't matter, power doesn't matter only story and character matter.</blockquote>

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