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<blockquote data-quote="Wyrmshadows" data-source="post: 4461868" data-attributes="member: 56166">Damn Kamikaze!!!&nbsp;This! &nbsp;You have stated for me, more clearly than I ever have, exactly why I don't like 4e. D&amp;D has always had strong gamist elements but IMO 4e ups the gamist ante dramatically. &nbsp;For me, 4e feels like a boardgame, a game whose gamist elements do not easily allow me to immerse myself in the &quot;reality&quot; of the RPing experience. All these conversations about whether or not martial class powers are magical exist bcause there is absolutely no in-game rationale for how they are supposed to work and every argument I have seen yet boils down to....don't think too much and have fun.&nbsp;Well it isn't fun for me if there is too much dissonance between gamist, narrative and simulationist elements. Its as if fun means, just shut-up and kill something, shut up and roll some dice. For me and my players, the fun is actually the setting, the fluff, the story and mechanics that support those things first.&nbsp;If I wanted endless gamist fun, I can play my Xbox 360 or Risk. PNP games have, for many of us, allowed us to get into the world and be there. Yeah, the model provided by any PNP RPing game is flawed, it always will be, but their at least seemed to be a desire to give a nod to versimilitude but now even that is gone.&nbsp;I have played the game....DM'ed it actually....for a few sessions and even though mechanically it is a strong game, stylistically I find it uncompelling and won't be playing it again. D&amp;D 3.5 has demonstrated repeatedly its ability to be successfully modified to reflect different kinds of fluff, from horror (ravenloft), survival horror/fantasy (Midnight), Grim and Gritty (Conan D20), traditional High Fantasy (Dragonlance), to super-magical High Fantasy (Forgotten Realms). It is the fluff that came first in these settings/3.5 variants with the mechanics supporting the core setting concepts.&nbsp;Mechanics first can IMO make every world setting exactly the same.&nbsp;&nbsp;To add: To show this is not an edition war thread, I must say that IMO both True20 and Mongoose Runequest's mechanics are more my cup of tea than any version of D&amp;D to date.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wyrmshadows</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Wyrmshadows, post: 4461868, member: 56166"] Damn Kamikaze!!! This! You have stated for me, more clearly than I ever have, exactly why I don't like 4e. D&D has always had strong gamist elements but IMO 4e ups the gamist ante dramatically. For me, 4e feels like a boardgame, a game whose gamist elements do not easily allow me to immerse myself in the "reality" of the RPing experience. All these conversations about whether or not martial class powers are magical exist bcause there is absolutely no in-game rationale for how they are supposed to work and every argument I have seen yet boils down to....don't think too much and have fun. Well it isn't fun for me if there is too much dissonance between gamist, narrative and simulationist elements. Its as if fun means, just shut-up and kill something, shut up and roll some dice. For me and my players, the fun is actually the setting, the fluff, the story and mechanics that support those things first. If I wanted endless gamist fun, I can play my Xbox 360 or Risk. PNP games have, for many of us, allowed us to get into the world and be there. Yeah, the model provided by any PNP RPing game is flawed, it always will be, but their at least seemed to be a desire to give a nod to versimilitude but now even that is gone. I have played the game....DM'ed it actually....for a few sessions and even though mechanically it is a strong game, stylistically I find it uncompelling and won't be playing it again. D&D 3.5 has demonstrated repeatedly its ability to be successfully modified to reflect different kinds of fluff, from horror (ravenloft), survival horror/fantasy (Midnight), Grim and Gritty (Conan D20), traditional High Fantasy (Dragonlance), to super-magical High Fantasy (Forgotten Realms). It is the fluff that came first in these settings/3.5 variants with the mechanics supporting the core setting concepts. Mechanics first can IMO make every world setting exactly the same. To add: To show this is not an edition war thread, I must say that IMO both True20 and Mongoose Runequest's mechanics are more my cup of tea than any version of D&D to date. Wyrmshadows [/QUOTE]

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