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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 4465552" data-attributes="member: 42582">The mechanics simulate nothing full stop. Like the saving throw mechanics in 1st ed AD&amp;D. They certainly do not simulate the game. They are (a part of) the game.As to pretending - I don't see that as objectionable. The fundamental step in playing an RPG is pretending that something is the case in an imaginary world (indeed, some people regard this as the paradigm of roleplaying, that distinguishes an RPG from a boardgame).In the case of 4e's hp/healing surge mechanics, they establish certain constraints on the what can be pretended to be the case in the imaginary world.Agreed. As Lost Soul has repeatedly pointed ouot, the hp/healing surge mechanics establish certain constraints on what can (consistently with the rules of the game) be pretended to be the case in the imaginary world.And that's the crux of the disagreement. Some players want mechanics that deliver the story. Others want mechanics that set the parameters for the story. 4e will not do the first job. (In my view neither did earlier versions of D&amp;D, but they often didn't do the second job all that well either, or at least often weren't very clear about it. But that's a different matter.) I think earlier editions had problems (eg the Cure spells, as has been noted repeatedly in this thread). I agree also that 4e is qualitatively different in embracing the non-simulationist character of the hp mechanic.I think 4e mixes slightly different mechanics together - intricate combat mechanics with comparatively rules-light mechanics for other conflicts. As hp belong to the former, it wouldn't fit with the current design to extend them to the latter. Whether the current mechanical mix ultimately makes sense is another matter, of course.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 4465552, member: 42582"] The mechanics simulate nothing [i]full stop[/i]. Like the saving throw mechanics in 1st ed AD&D. They certainly do not simulate the game. They are (a part of) the game. As to pretending - I don't see that as objectionable. The fundamental step in playing an RPG is pretending that something is the case in an imaginary world (indeed, some people regard this as the paradigm of roleplaying, that distinguishes an RPG from a boardgame). In the case of 4e's hp/healing surge mechanics, they establish certain constraints on the what can be pretended to be the case in the imaginary world. Agreed. As Lost Soul has repeatedly pointed ouot, the hp/healing surge mechanics establish certain constraints on what can (consistently with the rules of the game) be pretended to be the case in the imaginary world. And that's the crux of the disagreement. Some players want mechanics that deliver the story. Others want mechanics that set the parameters for the story. 4e will not do the first job. (In my view neither did earlier versions of D&D, but they often didn't do the second job all that well either, or at least often weren't very clear about it. But that's a different matter.) I think earlier editions had problems (eg the Cure spells, as has been noted repeatedly in this thread). I agree also that 4e is qualitatively different in embracing the non-simulationist character of the hp mechanic. I think 4e mixes slightly different mechanics together - intricate combat mechanics with comparatively rules-light mechanics for other conflicts. As hp belong to the former, it wouldn't fit with the current design to extend them to the latter. Whether the current mechanical mix ultimately makes sense is another matter, of course. [/QUOTE]

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