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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dthamilaye" data-source="post: 1536478" data-attributes="member: 11890">FleshshiverNecromancySor/Wiz 5Range: CloseSavingThrow: Fort partial, see text.SR: YesThis spell affects the target's skeleton, snapping and twisting bones. The target is automatically stunned for 1 round (no saving throw). In the following round, it must make a Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage per caster level and be nauseated by pain for 1d4+2 rounds.Thats the mechanical side of the text. I bolded the most important text.It is one target spell. 1 round of stun (no save). Next round, save or take d6 bludgeoning (non-energy) damage without limit and be nauseated for some time.The no limit in damage might be somehow understandable, as the spell affects only one target. However, the damage is BLUDGEONING damage, ie, it goes through EVERY resistance, so it is quite powerful.However, the stun with no save is the killer (IMHO). It just gets better and better the higher level the players are.As I said in my initial post:Brachyuruses are CR 23 with a lot of hp and are quite good at dealing damage when they succeed at tripping someone. In the fight, the sorcerer in the players group stunned 2 of them for 5 or 6 rounds, with no save. They lost 14 AC due to dexterity penalty, plus gave the players +2 to hit due flanking (because the beasts could not maneouver to stay out of flanked spots). Ie, their AC dropped effectively from 40 to 24. I belive there are even better examples if you take some monsters out of the ELHB. Duh, assuming the caster can penetrate SR, he could keep Devastation vermins and Hecatoncheires stunned as long as he had 5th level or higher slots. Thats pretty good for 5th level spell. Of course, he would deal some nice damage if the Devastations or Hecaton would throw 1 as saving throw as no energy resistances would help (also CL as cap on the damage).Now, with chain spell, the sorcerer in the players group could have hold 25 of those stunned for about 14+ rounds, with NO SAVE.Of course, the chain spell has range of 30' radius from the initial target, but lots of targets can get into a 60' diameter area.So, I think the 'no save' is the problem with this spell. IMHO, it should stay as it is, but the fort save would be done before the stun. If the fort save succeeds, no stun would happen.Thank youDthamilaye</blockquote>

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