Flexible Magic System Idea

[InkwellIdeas]

I've been working up what I'm tentatively calling the flexible magic system. Like many people, I'd like something different than the core D&D magic system. I've gone quite a bit further than what's here, but I don't want this to be too long. I don't want to go too much further until I get some opinions. I have two main questions for the group, but any comments or constructive criticism is welcome. The first is do you know of similar products/projects? I have Elements of Magic, and that's not quite what I'm going for here. Unearthed Arcana and metamagic feats doesn't come anywhere close. I've thought about getting Arcana Evolved but I'm not sure that has anything close based on what little I've been able to read (the table of contents.) My other question is: does this seem interesting to you? Worth reading/trying? Thanks! Here's the gist of my idea:

Goals:
-Allow spellcasters to modify spell factors. (Area, range, duration, damage, etc.)
-Preserve game balance. Don't make spellcasters more important to the party than any other class. However, if they become a bit more powerful at low levels than they are, that's OK as long as they are the same or slightly less powerful at medium-high through high levels.
-Make the system as simple as possible, while understanding that it is impossible for it not to be slightly more complicated as a result of the increased spell customization.

Approach:
-A spell point system is helpful because the cost of spells may be more granular than 0-9 spell levels or even 1-20. A relatively minor change to a spell should cost more, but in many cases it isn't important enough to bump it to a higher level. Also, spell's levels will basically be removed. Instead each spell will have a base cost. (A way to map the point values back to levels is possible for people who really want that.)
-Use familiar spells. To keep things simple, base the core spells that are customized on spells most players are already familiar with.
-Spells' base costs will be reverse engineered. Several versions with several different factors will be chosen and balanced. Each spell's base cost will be assigned based on what is needed to make all the spells of the same level cost about the same amount.
-Give the base spell forms point costs, then assign point cost to each value for each factor that it makes sense to change. Multiply the factors to get a point cost. (Ex: Alarm's base cost might be 1, medium range for it might be 2, medium area might also be 2, and an 8 hour duration might be 4, so 1x2x2x4=16 points.)
-Only whole numbers and one-half fractions will be used to keep the math easy.
-Unfortunately, because each factor might be more important to some spells than others, the same values can't be used for the factors.
-But we can try to keep things simple by making the values easy to find and put them on spell cards.
-Spellcasters may spend many spell points in one spell, effectively trying to cast a higher level spell than they would otherwise be entitled to. Perhaps this would require a concentration check, and at some point (maybe more than two spell levels higher) be impossible. If the caster fails the concentration check he would lose those points or have some other negative impact. While this gives him more power in a way, he would be quickly drained if he made a habit of it.

Here's an example:
Bear's Endurance
School: Transmutation
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes
Base Factor: 4
Bonus Factor: 1 + 1 per +2 Bonus
#Targets Factor: 1 + .5 per 2 additional targets
Range: Touch: 1; Close (25'): 1.5; Medium (100'): 2; Long (400'): 2.5; Far (1000'): 3
Duration (D): 1 Round: .5; 1 Minute: 1; 10 Minutes: 1.5; 1 Hour: 2; 8 Hours: 2.5; 1 Day: 3

(No major difference in the Bear's Endurance spell description, except those that change based on the variable factors chosen.)

Example Calculations
Base Bonus # Targets Range Duration Total
[4] +4 [3] 1 Target [1] Touch [1] 1 Minute [1] 12 (2)
[4] +4 [3] 5 Targets [2] Close [1.5] 1 Minute [1] 36 (4)
[4] +4 [3] 13 Targets [4] Close [1.5] 10 Minutes [1.5] 108 (6)
[4] +4 [3] 3 Targets [1.5] Close [1.5] 1 Day [6] 162 (7)
[4] +10 [6] 1 Target [1] Touch [1] 1 Minute [1] 24 (3)
[4] +10 [6] 5 Targets [2] Close [1.5] 1 Minute [1] 72 (6)

Note: The number in parentheses is the approximate spell level the total point cost maps to based on the spell point system I'm considering.

Again, thanks in advance for any constructive criticism.

 

[milo]

I would say just use the psionics as a basis and don't make the player take the metamagic feats. If you just make all metamagic feats in there automatic I think it would just about do what you want to do with this.

 

[A Crazy Fool]

Buy elements of magic. It's got everything that you're looking for, and it's only 8 bucks.

 

[Kerrick]

I don't like spell point systems, but what you've got sounds interesting, so I'll post some comments.

Are you familiar at all with Upper Krust's Revised CR system? He breaks down monsters' abilities and gives them point values like you're doing here, and he ends up with much more accurate CRs. I've got a (vaguely) similar system I use for my revised epic spellcasting system - I take a base spell effect (with level) then add levels for additional spell effects and/or modifications to arrive at the end level. It works out pretty well, overall.

Are you going to have modifiers for no verbal/somatic/material components too, or just variables like target, range, and area? What about damage?

-Unfortunately, because each factor might be more important to some spells than others, the same values can't be used for the factors.

There's an easy way to fix that - have multipliers (or adders) for the base factor. Say, if you have a touch spell and want to increase the range to Medium, it would be x6 (or +8). If the spell is already Medium and you want to go to Long, it would only be x1.5 (or +2). This allows for all spells to use the same modifiers, while still accounting for the increase in power to individual spells.

 

[GreatLemur]

Buy elements of magic. It's got everything that you're looking for, and it's only 8 bucks.

He said he's already got Elements of Magic, and that it isn't what he's looking for. Not sure why, though. From everything I've heard about it, EoM sounds pretty perfect for what he wants. Unless maybe it lacks the ability to handle standard d20 spells? The whole elemental thing seems kind of limited, when I think about it.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Unless maybe it lacks the ability to handle standard d20 spells? The whole elemental thing seems kind of limited, when I think about it.

You can recreate the standard d20 spells, but not all of 'em. So it's a bit limited, but it's not too bad actually.

That on its own isn't too bad, but the process of recreating the spells reveals that you've got more than one way of creating said effect. Which of course means that people are going to want to try and create the cheapest version they can. Which leads (probably) to some folks being disgruntled at the fact that there's more than one solution, as well as leading to questions about "balance" since you can make the same spell 2 (or more) different ways and have different costs each time.

The actual process for creating/recreating the spells is a bit involved too. There wasn't an "official" conversion done, and to my knowledge no fan actually converted the SRD spells over either.

These days, I'm much more a fan of the Unusual Core Classes: Spellweaver from Misfit Studios. You can find it here:
http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?from_home=1&it=1&motds_id=414&products_id=12636

It's a skill/feat based system, and they give the DCs for the SRD spells. They also have all the information you need to be able to generate the Spellweaver version of any other d20 spells.

So if I were going to go with Spell Points instead of skills and feats (or Spell points and feats) I'd start with simply deciding on a "conversion rate" for the DC into Spellpoints.

As a general note:
People really seem to be in love with the idea of a completely "flexible" spell system, where a player can tweak any aspect of the spell and pay a different cost depending on what they do. And to a certain extent, it is a nifty idea. It's just that this is usually a prelude to an "on the fly" system, and that's nifty too.

It's also one that I've rarely seen actually _work_ in the past 20 years. At least, "work" in the sense of "fun for everyone, not just the guy making the spell"

Instead, you wind up usually having a player wait until it's actually their turn before they start to even _make_ the spell. Then they need to ask the GM 2 or 3 questions about the situation to try and fine tune their spell construction. Some more time passes, and then the player will announce what it is that they're actually doing. Then the GM will often want to check the player's math to make sure the spell is really going to be that cheap to do that effect.

If you thought it was annoying to have combat grind to a halt while a player thumbed through the PHB and tried to decide between Spell A and Spell B, wait until you give that player the ability to make their own spells.

The main thing something like this is good for is when a player says, "Damn, I wish I could throw that spell further" or "Is there any way I can increase the damage on that?" or even "My guy wants to research a totally new spell that will do [blah blah blah]"

At that point the GM can say, "Sure you can throw the spell further. It's going to cost you [X] amount more" or "Well, if you make a Spellcraft check you can enhance your spell to do more damage for [X] amount" or "Well Bob, you're a little cheese monkey but I'll let your character do it. It's going to take [x] amount of time, [y] amount of resources to research, and when you're done the spell is going to look like [this] and cost [Z] points to cast. And I'm going to hate you for being a munchkin."

In other words, any kind of customizable system or on-the-fly system really works best when it's used as a behind the scenes kind of thing. Stick with the default spells, or import spells from whatever d20 source you feel like. Run it through the system to come up with the cost of the spell, but just give the total cost to cast the spell to the player. Save all the variables and bits for _if_ the player wants to tweak something.

And if you're thinking, "Well, it's nice to have the system and all but I actually want the players to _use_ it" there's a simple solution. Just have 'em go up against a bad guy or two that actually _does_ use tweaked spells. That Ray of Pants Dropping that's got twice the distance the players/characters thought it did, or that fireball that blows up with a lot more force than people thought... that's what'll get 'em interested. And if it doesn't interest 'em... *shrug* then it doesn't. The GM now has a tool in their arsenal to judge spells (and by implication magic items) relative to each other.

'Cause that's the other thing... it's always fun to play around with some sort of thing like this, but if the players aren't actually interested in it, it's going to be a lot of work that goes to waste.

So that's why I personally would simply go with an already exisiting system and convert it a bit to do what I want. Which is why I'd go with the Spellweaver, say that every [X] DC costs [Y] amount of spellpoints, and call it good.

Good luck no matter which way you go though!