Flight and Loads

[Luminita]

Hello, first post!

Ok. Got a bit of a question here concerning avariel in the Races of Faerun manual. It states that they can carry a medium load while flying, yet I can't find a single instance of another winged race or monster that can carry more than a light load and be able to get off the ground, much less fly. Why is this? A dragon can't even carry more than a light load and get off the ground and their strength is far higher than any avariel.

I'd considered that it was because they have hollow bones and thus less body weight to take aloft, but... not even creatures like giant eagles, very much birds with hollow bones, can do the same that I can see.

This load bearing ability gives the avariel a fairly powerful advantage over other flying races. I'm hoping that is a typo in the RoF manual. I'd likely not even have noticed, but we've a person that has this.. ermmm.. odd insistance on playing NOTHING but winged creatures and avariel more than others and they carry about a high medium weight virtual armory (ie no bags of holding. Just a pack with all this stuff in it and several weapons hanging all over her body.) I'm arguing that there's no way that an avariel should be able to maintain its top manueverabilty and speed with that much stuff on her person and as DM, I've curtailed her being able to carry about another PC in her arms AND all her gear without adverse effects on flight. This of course is a sore spot between us because of course.. the RoF manuals sez they can carry a Med load. I just don't agree with it myself. I think it's pushing the boundries of physics to allow them to do so unerringly.

The Fly spell is magical, requiring no muscle effort on the part of the spell subject, yet a med load cuts the flight speed down to 40 from 60 ft. (Which is understandable and logical.) If anything should be able to function at full capacity while carrying a med load, it's someone under the Fly spell, not a creature bound to the laws of mundane, non-magical gravity like all other creatures.

Can anyone shed any light on it, or perhaps give me some good sound reasons why avariel get this privelege when no other flighted creature seems to?

 

[Scharlata]

[...]Can anyone shed any light on it, or perhaps give me some good sound reasons why avariel get this privelege when no other flighted creature seems to?

Hi and welcome to the boards!

Usually - as you got it right - a creature can only (naturally) fly if it carries only a light load. The MM's glossary states that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load for a creature - especially if the creature has a high Strength score and/or is of Large or larger size and/or a quadruped. The PHB entry of barding for mounts states that a flying mount cannor fly in medium or heavy armor. That's a contradiction to the MM's glossary. The Rules of the Games: All about Movement page 14 by Skip W. (see the WotC web site) states that "creatures can fly only of [sic = if] lightly loaded".

I'd suggest that your best starting place is to assume that a creature can only fly if lightly loaded. Look up the Carrying Capacity as per the PHB, p. 162 and modify the result for a larger, stronger and/or quadrupedal creature.

If that creature carries a heavier load than light (after calculating all equipment and armor) then it cannot fly as long as it does not lose any equipment.

I'd consider the Avariel no special creature and would not "grant" it any "privileges".

Kind regards

 

[Luminita]

Thank you very much for the reply! As I suspected, the general flight rules should govern them as they do all other creatures. Now to battle to break the news to the player. lol. Thank you again.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Thank you very much for the reply! As I suspected, the general flight rules should govern them as they do all other creatures. Now to battle to break the news to the player. lol. Thank you again.

It may be that the Avariel were given the ability to fly carrying a medium load on purpose, to allow Avariel PCs to get away with wearing decent armor and still be able to fly. Note that a dragon doesn't have to count its massive natural armor bonus against its encumbrance, but an Avariel fighter does have to count his armor. Even so, a medium load means picking up a Heward's Handy Haversack and mithral for anything heavier than chain.

RAW, Avariel can fly carrying a medium load, period. That other creatures can't doesn't prove that the Avariel entry is a mistake.

I can certainly understand a DM's reasoning for House Ruling the Avariel to follow the general rules on flying creatures and encumbrance. But it is a House Rule that, not being familiar with the Avariel and its bonuses/drawbacks, I'm not sure is warranted.

 

[Scharlata]

Hi!

It may be that the Avariel were given the ability to fly carrying a medium load on purpose, to allow Avariel PCs to get away with wearing decent armor and still be able to fly. [...]

All flying creatures may wear armor (even if the don't have any armor proficiencies and therefore suffer from the associated penalties). The general rule is: A creature isn't capable of natural flight if the total encumbrance (including armor) exceeds light load.
If a bipedal Medium size natural flyer dons i.e. heavy plate armor (from Races of Stone, which weighs 100 pounds) and has a Strength score of 19 (light load up to 116 pounds) it could take up arms (i.e. a longsword [4 pounds]) and still fly because the creature wears a total of 104 pounds of equipment.

RAW, Avariel can fly carrying a medium load, period. That other creatures can't doesn't prove that the Avariel entry is a mistake.

Sorry, the "period" thing isn't quite convincing, my lord; neither the "doesn't prove ... a mistake". Quite the contrary. One mistake doesn't constitute a rule.


But I can live with both options. Let the Avariel fly high through the sky.....

Kind regards and a happy new year!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

All flying creatures may wear armor (even if the don't have any armor proficiencies and therefore suffer from the associated penalties). The general rule is: A creature isn't capable of natural flight if the total encumbrance (including armor) exceeds light load.

I am well-aware of the general rule. I have a griffon-riding full plate-wearing paladin, so I need to be.

My emphasis was on decent armor. Your example is of an Avariel with a massive strength (not even possible until 4th-level, unless the Avariel get a strength bonus?) score carrying nothing but armor and a single one-handed weapon. I'd say that's an extreme example. Most PCs are going to have plenty more gear than just sword and armor, and more are going to have to make due with less than a 19 strength. I think my theory, that the designers may have given the Avariel a unique ability to relax this penalty, is still quite feasible.

Sorry, the "period" thing isn't quite convincing, my lord; neither the "doesn't prove ... a mistake". Quite the contrary. One mistake doesn't constitute a rule.

There are dozens of exceptions to various rules in the 3.x ruleset. What is it about the Avariel that makes you think it's a mistake instead of an exception? Indeed, considering the various exceptions to rules in the game, I'd be more likely to assume something is an exception, rather than a mistake, until proven otherwise.

Apologies for the "period," though. You're quite right. It's a sloppy way to debate.

 

[Scharlata]

Hi!

[...] I think my theory, that the designers may have given the Avariel a unique ability to relax this penalty, is still quite feasible.There are dozens of exceptions to various rules in the 3.x ruleset. What is it about the Avariel that makes you think it's a mistake instead of an exception? Indeed, considering the various exceptions to rules in the game, I'd be more likely to assume something is an exception, rather than a mistake, until proven otherwise.

...quite feasable..., yes of course
...exception..., quite possible
...rather than a mistake..., because in that case the author would have PROBABLY written it this way to point out an exception , so I'd hope

Apologies for the "period," though. You're quite right. It's a sloppy way to debate.

No need to be that dramatic, but it is always nice to know to discuss a topic with a gentle EN board member.

Happy new year!

 

[Luminita]

I see the reasoning in both above, and thank you for the posts.

I still have a hard time agreeing with the fact that avariel get a special ability to fly when other flying creatures that can be used as PC races get no such special consideration. It's stated in the race info that avariel wear no or light armor only to prevent inhibiting their flight/wings. The character in question that I'm dealing with is a druid. The options for armor are limited to begin with. And this character doesn't just carry 1 weapon. No. When I say she carries a virtual armory, I'm not joking. And she does not have a haversack, or bag of holding, only her pack and her body. A stave, a machete, five swords (all scimitars), then there's the robes and all the miscellaneous things like tent, bedrolls, sling stones, etc. a myriad of potions, and approximately 20K in gold. After checking, her load goes pretty much up to the very limit of medium for her Str if not slightly over and that's not wearing armor. The contention was that she was flying effortlessly with that load and carrying around a 160 lb woman in her arms while doing it.

For example: In Races of Faerun, same manual that contains the avariel, there are two other winged playable races.

Kir-Lanan. Fly speed 90 with good manueverability. +4 racial Str bonus. Yet no special ability to fly while bearing a med load.

Arakocra: Fly speed 90, average manueverability. No special provision for flying with a med load.

Not in RoF, but also playable, is the pixie or sprite. They don't get an option for this either, so I don't understand why one particular race should be singled out for preferential treatment as pertains to flight. Shouldn't all flighted, humanoid playable races get such a benefit so they can use med armor as well? If the idea is that they might have done this so that avariel can use med armor, then it makes little sense that the racial info would state that avariel avoid using anything but light armor because it interferes with their flight.

I think my main reason for disliking such a huge boost to the avariel is that flight is already a pretty powerful battle mechanism, and complicated to DM, and this just gives a race that's already advantaged over the enemy even more of an edge than before. (Also, I'm not really fond of using avariel as PC's since they're supposed to be extremely rare to start with. )

Thanks all, I'll take it up with some of my co-DM's and see what they have to say about the situation based on the very helpful info given. Likely, to keep flighted races on an even keel, the house rule will be no creature can carry aloft a med load and maintain their full performance.